The Model 19 "Controversy"

[reccpd101]

As with other posters, my first service weapon in civilian LE was a blue 19, I qualified with 38 158 gr but carried and shot on my own the red hot SuperVel 357. That forcing cone cracked. I found a deal on a nickel 19, same course of events. Same result. Duh!!!. I changed agencies to the US Marshal Service and got a 2.5 inch Model 66-1. The ejector rod would not reliably eject 357. Started shooting 38+p 158 gr. lead SWCHP. A family change forced me to sell most of my guns. My 66-1 went to another LEO and I told him what I had found out about ammo. I recently found and reacquired my old 66-1. No forcing cone damage and it still loves 38+P lead SWCHP. Although at 69 yrs old, its more fun to shoot standard power 38. In between I've owned L and N frames, magically both gain weight over the course of a shift !!!! The above posters who said the 19 & 66 were meant to be carried a lot, shot a lot with 38s and sparingly with Magnums are correct. Further, they make great 38+P guns. To those posters who have shot 1000s of 357 125 gr magnums through their K frame older 19 & 66s with no damage, I say even a blind hog finds an acorn sometimes !!!

 

[cowboy4evr]

I have had at least a half dozen K-frame 357's over quite a few years . They were stamped on the side of the barrel " 357 magnum " so that is what they all have gotten . It didn't say , " shoot 38 special most of the time and 357 sparingly " !!! Most of my rounds consist of either the Keith 173 gr swc (crimped in the crimp groove in 357 case ) or a cast 180 gr bullet . Most of the " Keith " bullet loads consist of 7.0 grs of Unique or 13.5 grs of 2400 . My 180 gr cast loads are always the same , 13.5 grs of H-110 , which is a max load using current load data . I have never and never will shoot 125 gr bullets in my 357's of any make or model . I have never cracked a forcing cone and never shot one " loose " . I clean my guns after each range session , thoroughly . Regards Paul

 

[Muley Gil]

Because its fun.

Wouldn't that be like owing a really fast car and never holding the pedal to the floor??

I had two 19-2s, a 4" and a 6".

For some reason I didn't cared for the 4" and sold the 6" ANIB.

I love my 6" 66-1 that has had 1000s of .357s go down the barrel.

I thought the problem with the 19s forcing cone was caused by shooting early extremely hot LE loads??

The problem was the 125 grain .357 rounds caused erosion of the forcing cone and some M19s suffered cracked forcing cones.

In the past, police departments trained with .38 specials, but then the officers loaded up with magnum rounds. A number of departments went to "qualify with your duty ammo" and in addition, started shooting more throughout the year, as opposed to a single yearly qualification.

Shooting all of this light bulleted ammo caused some M19s to have cracked cones.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I have had at least a half dozen K-frame 357's over quite a few years . They were stamped on the side of the barrel " 357 magnum " so that is what they all have gotten . It didn't say , " shoot 38 special most of the time and 357 sparingly " !!! Most of my rounds consist of either the Keith 173 gr swc (crimped in the crimp groove in 357 case ) or a cast 180 gr bullet . Most of the " Keith " bullet loads consist of 7.0 grs of Unique or 13.5 grs of 2400 . My 180 gr cast loads are always the same , 13.5 grs of H-110 , which is a max load using current load data . I have never and never will shoot 125 gr bullets in my 357's of any make or model . I have never cracked a forcing cone and never shot one " loose " . I clean my guns after each range session , thoroughly . Regards Paul

I never shot 125 gr bullets at anytime. See my post. At the time all shot in all my 357's were cast bullet reloads at about 3/4 throttle..........Stuff happens......

 

[cowboy4evr]

Mike SC , in your case you just got a bad barrel . Probably a hairline fracture in the forcing cone area causing it to split . It had nothing to do with your loads , in my opinion . Regards Paul

 

[rubiranch]

To those posters who have shot 1000s of 357 125 gr magnums through their K frame older 19 & 66s with no damage, I say even a blind hog finds an acorn sometimes !!!

This is the 66-1 that my brother carried his first 10 years in LE.

I am by no means a gun expert but I'm quite sure that my brother BUFF was.

This is his post here in the forum back on February 16th 2016.

"As regards flame cutting, I quit believing it to be a real problem a long time ago. I carried a 6 inch Model 66 as my duty weapon for about 10 years. As a gun nut, I practiced a lot with it, and for most of that time, I used 125 grain .357's in it. It was either Federal factory or my handload of Sierra, Speer or Hornaday 125's and W-296 powder. Supposedly, the flamethrower of ammunition choices.

As expected, the gun loosened up some and the forcing cone shows some wear, but while the topstrap is marked, the mark never got deeper after becoming noticeable. Not a strength issue.

Don't worry about it."

In another one of his posts he commented that he put at least 100 practice rounds a month thru it.

This one has been fired a lot.

I know it happens but not to all of them.

 

[OldChief]

I have two 19s a 6" CHP Commemorative (19-4, 1979) and a 4" (19, 1958). I've put thousands of .38 special rounds through both of them and I have to admit, not too many .357s mainly because I didn't have a need to. They're both very accurate revolvers and have served me well.

 

[rwsmith]

Part of the problem....

...was that cutout at the bottom of the forcing cone that had a tendency to crack. Hot, 125 gr bullet loads were blamed for most of the trouble. I gathered that 158 to 180 grain bullets were best suited for it. Reloading was a plus because you can load less than full power but still considerably more powerful than a .38, probably with little worry of the gun holding up. A load like the 12.5 grains of 2400 with a 158 grain bullet would be great.

 

[dogdoc]

Keep most loads below 30000 psi and probably much less likelihood of problems . You can still get very good performance at that level. That’s what I do but I am a Handloader

 

[stansdds]

Ball powders like H-110/W296 are significant factors in erosion.

 

[M29since14]

My 19s don’t get a lot of .357s, but they do get a fair amount. When they do, it is almost always a 160 LSWC and 13.0 grains of #2400. It’s my attempt to use the two tools mentioned above (slightly reduced pressure, no ball powders) to minimize the potential for needless damage to the guns. If I need more power, I have .44 Magnums - and centerfire rifles.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Mike SC , in your case you just got a bad barrel . Probably a hairline fracture in the forcing cone area causing it to split . It had nothing to do with your loads , in my opinion . Regards Paul

Maybe.......I'd only been shooting it since 1974 when I bought it NIB. Some longevity post here I take with a grain of salt........mebbee the whole box,

 

[Old Corp]

Slightly O/T here and I apologize, but guess I was always a bit surprised that the 'mid-weight' bullets were not any more popular than they were.

When I was a .38/.357 loading and shooting real enthusiast, I found I really liked a few mid-weight bullets. The LGS where I worked had an old stock of Super Vel component bullets - they came 50 to a box, and were 137 gr. JSP, (and cheap!)
They shot great and on some trips out to Texas to visit family, I took some jackrabbits with them from my Ruger S6 4". Think I was using Blue Dot at the time. And it was obvious they were expanding just fine.

Speer had a couple of great mid-weights, a 140 gr. JHP and the 3/4 jacketed 146 gr JHP, which lacking the tech of most JHP's, sold at a lesser price, but performed really well. Wish Speer still made that 146 number.

Sierra had the 150 gr JHC (jacketed hollow cavity), and while only a little lighter than the conventional 158 gr weight, it shot great and I knew several hunters who used it on whitetails with great success.

So, it seems the .357 is thought of as a launcher for bullets that are 110, 125, and 158 grains and unless someone is loading cast bullets of varying weights - that's about it.

These days most of my .357 is 158-162 gr LSWC, and some LSWC-HP's in the same range.
But, in jacketed, feel there's a place for the mid-weights that most likely would be kinder to the forcing cone problems if being driven at sane levels.

 

[357 shooter]

The average shooter will never shoot their guns enough to wear them out.

Exactly , I wish I could afford to load enough 357s to wear out either of my K-Frames. Not 19s but a 66-1 and 66-5. I don't shoot the 66-1 much these days as I can hardly see the sights anymore. The 66-5 is has actually been shot more as I added an optic to test the accuracy.

As to the Hammer of Thor 125 JHPs even in my L or N frames I don't shoot them much. If I want the blast and concussion of firing an atomic cannon I'll find Doc Brown and we'll take the Delorian up to 88 mph and go back to the 1950s. I find the 158s a lot more pleasant to shoot regardless of the frame size.

 

[Walter Rego]

I am another one who laments the discontinuance of the Speer 146 grain half jacketed SWCHP. When I first started handloading it was the bullet of choice in my Dan Wesson Model 15-2VH and shot very well in my buddy's Model 19. I never liked the 125 grain bullets and 146 grains seemed to be a good compromise for weight & velocity. They also expanded very well in my unscientific tests on wet clay stream banks.

I also remember reading that ball powders were part of the combination with the 110 grain and 125 grain bullets that were hard on the forcing cones of Model 19's.

 

[BigBill]

In my beginning of buy handguns it was a s&w m19 vs a colt python. In the mid 70’ s the m19 was rumored to shoot itself abart. Loose screws with constantly eating magnum loads. I chose the python. The python loved my hotter loads. Using my 140 gr jhp reloads she could ping small rocks on the 100 yd berm. A 6” barrel. Soon after my ruger Police Service six joined the line up. No screws to come loose. It also liked my hotter 357 loads. I stayed away from the s&w m19. I did go after the s&w heavier m27 & m 28.
I’m only interested in colts, Rugers and s&w revolvers.

 

[John F.]

"On Blindly Accepting 'Authorities'..."

Just for fun, not meaning to step on anyone's toes here...

My Dad (DOB 1921) was a hell of a fine shooter. Early on, he decided the ideal career for him was to be an exhibition shooter for one of the big ammo companies. So, his spare money went to buy .22's, with which he practiced lots. Then, in his Sr. year in military school, he ran the firing range while everyone else had Drill and Ceremonies practice for an hour a day, every day, for a year.

During that hour, he had all the free .22 ammo he wanted to shoot. Located way out in the country, aerial shooting wasn't frowned on, and he started tossing up lumps of coal from the coal pile. Soon, he was hitting the lumps and some of the resultant fragments still in the air.

He moved to smaller and smaller targets, and by the end, he could hit 2-3 empty .22 brass per throw on his better runs. Then to the University of Kentucky, and he just HAD to be on the Infantry Reserve Rifle Team... Heck, it was 1939, what could POSSIBLY go wrong? Graduating in 1943, he went to Infantry OCS as contracted, and qualified expert with everything they had except the M1 Carbine (which had a crude, non-adjustable L-shaped rear sight at that time.)

Well, the "Salty Old NCO" who taught pistol marksmanship introduced his new class to the 1911A1. He spouted the usual drivel about how "inaccurate" they are, he'd never seen anyone ever shoot a perfect score, and yadda, yadda, yadda. "WHY, IN FACT, I'LL GIVE 20 to 1 ODDS on a bet with anybody here that they can't shoot a perfect score..."

My Dad had never shot a .45, and having grown up in the Depression, he didn't want to risk any money, so he didn't make the bet... and he then easily shot the first perfect score "SGT OLD SALT" had ever seen!

I chided him about it (much later, of course!) saying "GEEE, you couldn't even bet ONE DOLLAR? You'd have had $20!" Well, that was what he got for blindly accepting the hoary myths propagated by people who were supposed to be "Ex-Spurts."

There is a lot of good info here, and the stuff that is specific -- re: thinner forcing cones of some models, 125 gr's (which have a much shorter bearing surface length than 158's, thus transitioning the gap between cylinder and forcing cone much differently), etc. is all very helpful in putting together an informed plan about shooting one's Model 19.

But, as always, beware the "range experts" who talk more than they shoot, when it comes to parroting popular things "Everybody Knows." I can't imagine not shooting my model 19's just for fear they might magically disintegrate!

John (Distinguished Marksman x2 -- Service Pistol and Service Rifle, both accomplished as a Civilian with iron sights, on my own time and my own dime, well before the appearance of "optics"...)

FWIW, in line with my Dad's experience, I've personally found the rack grade 1911's I've shot to be fine for their intended purpose...

 

[CLASSIC12]

FWIW, in line with my Dad's experience, I've personally found the rack grade 1911's I've shot to be fine for their intended purpose...

On this point I fully agree with you (25 m)

‘42 Colt

‘43 Colt

‘43 Remington Rand

Heck even a 1913 Colt with a horrendous 10 lbs trigger pull does the job

 

[Gearhead Jim]

My 66-6 was tuned by the S&W Performance Center about 10 years ago. Included with the paperwork returned to me was a Performance Center business card with hand written:

Sir-
Practice with .38
Carry .357

 

[SmithNut]

It's only a controversy.......

It's only a controversy if you have not experienced it.....

A few years back on a semi-annual shooting trip to Montana with a group of friends, my shooting buddy was shooting his 4" M19 and a 4" M13. He had been regularly shooting yellow box Remington 357 Magnum loads with 125 gun bullets. When his M19 bound up we noticed the crack in the forcing cone (on the thin lower part of the barrel). Upon inspecting the M13, it was peened pretty well in the same area.

When returning home he contacting S&W and arranged to send these revolvers back.

The word from the factory was that the M19 was not salvageable and there were no replacement barrels available (believe it was a M19-2). On the M13 they were able to clean it up a bit and when returning the gun to my buddy, the warranty gentleman advised him to shoot 38 Specials only going forward, and specifically said to not shoot the hot 125 grain Mag loads, again noting that there were no replacement barrels available should he experience a crack on that barrel. He's since put the M13 into light duty as it is one of his favorite revolvers.

At the end of the day, it is a known weakness, so if you want to risk damaging a nice old revolver, just be aware of the lack of replacement parts for the older guns.

For What It's Worth....