Unacceptable behavior - on several grounds.

[Doug M.]

Context: I'm a (deputy) prosecutor in a medium sized county in WA. In this state, the Prosecutor's office is the criminal prosecutor for felonies, juvenile offenses, and misdemeanors processed by any agency other than the city. In some counties, they can and do contract to do the municipal cases. The Prosecutor's office is also the attorney for the County - that is, we handle the civil stuff that goes on. (In some states, the prosecutor and county counsel function are in different offices.) Even a relatively small operation like our County has a lot of complex stuff going on that requires contract review and legal assistance. In a population of just under 50K, there are 4 attorneys in the civil division and we need more. most of what I do is criminal justice system stuff, and some involves working directly for our criminal division. I'm old and have seen lots of stuff, much like the Farmer's Insurance commercials, due to having been both a cop and a criminal prosecutor. (This background is why I say some of the things I say - I have prosecuted cases, or been to them as a cop, that involve behavior that decent people cannot even begin to comprehend, or believe it to be true.)

One of my civil duties is serving as public records officer for our office. The Public Records Act here is very demanding and I do some complex stuff in addition to research and teaching for the whole county.

Ok, with that garbage out of the way: I recently had a PRA request for reports from about 500 or so DUI cases over the past couple years. One of the things that struck me as I finished the project was just how many impaired drivers had carry pistols. Understand this, I am almost never unarmed. I am truly boggled by people who own guns and don't carry them every waking minute if lawful.

However: doing so when drinking is neither lawful nor smart. Every one of those arrestees will forfeit the gun and ammo as part of the case, as anyone under the influence and in possession of the firearm where a carry license is required loses it. (See RCW 9.41.098 if you care to look.) Dumb. Some of these people were at pretty significant blood alcohol levels, 2 or more times the presumptive level (there is no such thing as a "legal limit" - that level is presumptive, but most are impaired well below it). In addition, some of them were taking drugs (prescribed, OTC, or unlawful) that compounded the problem. If you are too messed up to drive, you are too messed up to carry. In addition, it means that one has sacrificed the situational awareness needed for self-protection to the desire to drink. And, for good measure, although it does not change the legal analysis, a noticeable number of the pistols were not ready for use - many had the mags out, no round in the chamber, etc. Shameful. This is the basis for the title.

I'm no puritan. I'm not opposed to drinking, although my body is getting less and less tolerant, so 2 drinks at home once a week is pushing it. I just find it stupid to handicap oneself when in theory that person is armed for their own well-being. There no places or times that are "safe" - there may be lower odds, now and then, but that's all, and betting on those odds is dumb. Our felony filings here are up 100% over the last comparable period. We had several years worth of murders in 2020.

I don't care too much about what you have done up until today if you have gotten by with it. However, I do care if you don't listen to this message. From the moment you see this posting, if you have not un(screwed) your thinking and actions: SHAME ON YOU.

 

[Dan Zulu]

I agree that those situations describe poor behavior.

As for carrying consistently I understand why some can’t. I represent clients in civil matters in Washington. I can’t take a firearm to the law firm where I work, and rather than leaving it locked in an unattended car all day I leave it at home and go unarmed for the short car ride. Before Covid I was in courthouses regularly and didn’t want the hassle of asking the contract screening staff to check in a weapon for me. Other days I admit that sometimes laziness is the only reason I don’t arm up.

 

[Gyrene6891]

I think most of those who drink, to excess, and drive will do so again. They are already breaking the law so continuing to carry with no permit is no big deal to them. Just another case of the government picking on them, or so they think.

 

[BC38]

I agree that those situations describe poor behavior.

As for carrying consistently I understand why some can’t. I represent clients in civil matters in Washington. I can’t take a firearm to the law firm where I work, and rather than leaving it locked in an unattended car all day I leave it at home and go unarmed for the short car ride. Before Covid I was in courthouses regularly and didn’t want the hassle of asking the contract screening staff to check in a weapon for me. Other days I admit that sometimes laziness is the only reason I don’t arm up.

I used to have the same issue at work. Carrying not allowed and metal detectors at the entrance and exit to enforce it. I got a gunvault for my car that cabled to the seat and parked right in front of the guard shack.

Now I have a job where it isn't prohibited, and I carry pretty much 24x7, including at home, except on those rare occasions I have to go into a school, post office, etc. where it is legally prohibited.

BUT, I don't drink. At all. Anywhere. Ever. Haven't for 36 years. Alcohol and effective self defense don't go together IMO.

 

[robertrwalsh]

Here in the People's Republic of California some permit issuing jurisdictions specify zero drinking and 0.0 BAC when carrying or you loose the permit.

 

[STCM(SW)]

"BUT, I don't drink. At all. Anywhere. Ever. Haven't for 36 years. Alcohol and effective self defense don't go together IMO."
Well, like has been said many times opinions are like arm pits, every body has them!
I have a few drinks every night and does not make me a bad person!
And I CC a gun all the time at my age with a disabled wife......

 

[S-W4EVER]

I’m a retired LEO, spent about 75% of my career on the dry side of the state. I’ve seen more than my share of the carnage caused by drunk drivers but very little gun crime. DUI’s are a lot harder to find now than in the old days but ANY drunk drivers are too many.

I CCW everywhere but I don’t drink and drive. Too much to lose. Only place I ever drink is at home and my rule is no driving at all after I’ve had a drink. Zero tolerance. Guns & booze (like cars & booze) don’t mix.

BTW, the State doesn’t charge enough for those Public Records Requests. They’re nothing more than labor intensive fishing expeditions intended to punish the criminal justice system for having the audacity to arrest a habitual offender.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Thankfully, Missouri solved that issue several years ago and removed the prohibition against possessing a firearm while intoxicated. It is now legal to do so, unless one otherwise illegally uses or possesses the firearm. The law specifically exempts a lawful act of self defense.

It has eliminated some of the ridiculous felony prosecutions for "Oh look, you're driving drunk and I found the pistol in your glove box, console or wayback of your SUV." Now you're a felon, just because you didn't sweep search your car before the wedding . . .

It allows one to drink beer in one's own home and still be able to legally deal with the home invaders that dominate many of the threads in this subforum. Much of the discussion here centers about carrying and drinking in a bar, which is also legal, unless you do something stupid. Not much discussion about drinking at home and getting robbed . . .

 

[zeke]

"Ok, with that garbage out of the way: I recently had a PRA request for reports from about 500 or so DUI cases over the past couple years."

Was used to numerous public records requests, some going back over entire history of projects (over 50 years). We would retrieve the records, but require they hire a certified firm to do the copying. The requester would have to determine what was "relevant" to their purpose.

Gave up drinking years ago, but am of opinion drunk drivers are as dangerous/ more dangerous than drunk CC.

 

[Hair Trigger]

In NC, there is zero tolerance for carrying and drinking. If you are in possession of a firearm, open or concealed and not on your own property, your BAC has to be zero. Those with a CC permit and found to have alcohol in their blood permanently lose their CC permit.

That said, I'm sure there are those who drink while carrying and take the risk of being caught doing so, just as people drink and drive and risk getting a DWI.

I was a CC instructor in NC for three years; one of the myriad stupid questions and comments I'd get from students involved why they couldn't even have one beer while carrying. No one seems to understand that it impairs judgment long before a physical effect is noticed. I quit teaching mainly because of things like this, and the liability imposed were I required to testify and defend myself about what I had taught someone who used their CC while under the influence and lied that they'd never been told they couldn't. There were other aspects equally ridiculous.

People will do whatever they feel they can get away with, regardless of what they are told, or the penalty they face for getting caught. It takes a sense of duty and responsibility that too many don't possess.

 

[fatcat3]

And, for good measure, although it does not change the legal analysis, a noticeable number of the pistols were not ready for use - many had the mags out, no round in the chamber, etc. Shameful. This is the basis for the title.
.

Did it occur to you the maybe the reason the pistols where not ready to use was because the owner had been drinking? Maybe not "shameful" but a small gesture of responsibility. Then I was brought up and lived my life with guns and alcohol dont mix. (drugs where out of the question)

 

[Transamconvert]

Got to disagree with the majority. Having a couple drinks shouldn't negate your right to defend your family any more than being on prescription medication or having a disability (are the legality blind prevented from carrying?). Point is, a right is a right, though it comes with responsibility. If you're in that position, a jury will be deciding if it was the right call anyway and if you made a bad choice then you're going to be held responsible.
Laws like the described WA and NC statutes are a solution looking for a problem, and only serve to discourage carrying which is probably the point.
Also, driving and carrying are a false comparison. One is actively dangerous, one is not. We all heard the blood in the streets arguments when carry permits started spreading that people with guns would be waving them around and turning bars into shooting galleries. It's just not reality.

 

[Protocall_Design]

It's long been said that gunpowder and alcohol don't mix. It won't shoot and it tastes terrible!

 

[SMSgt]

No one is ever convinced by being preached to...

Florida 790.151 Using firearm while under the influence of alcoholic beverages, chemical substances, or controlled substances; penalties.—
(1) As used in ss. 790.151-790.157, to “use a firearm” means to discharge a firearm or to have a firearm readily accessible for immediate discharge.
(2) For the purposes of this section, “readily accessible for immediate discharge” means loaded and in a person’s hand.
(3) It is unlawful and punishable as provided in subsection (4) for any person who is under the influence of alcoholic beverages, any chemical substance set forth in s. 877.111, or any substance controlled under chapter 893, when affected to the extent that his or her normal faculties are impaired, to use a firearm in this state.
(4) Any person who violates subsection (3) commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
(5) This section does not apply to persons exercising lawful self-defense or defense of one’s property.

Not all states agree on the topic of when one is allowed or not allowed to defend one's self.

 

[CQB27]

I don't drink.....but I'm of the school of thought that a responsible man can have a drink and a gun at the same time and be fine.

Here in Georgia it's not illegal to be drunk and armed. It is illegal to be drunk and shooting your firearm on public or private property, unless you are doing so under the "use of force in defense of self or others" statute. I do like to point out to those who might think it's ok to be drunk and shooting to defend yourself or others, especially in a public place, that the witnesses to that event who will be making statements/giving testimony that will be used to determine if the shooting was indeed lawful will likely be drunk too and have emotional skin in the game....just saying.

 

[transit]

It's long been said that gunpowder and alcohol don't mix. It won't shoot and it tastes terrible!

As always, there are exceptions.

"Alcohol proof

The term “proof” stems from the British Royal Navy’s “proof” test. This involved pouring the spirit onto gunpowder. If the powder would burn after being soaked, it indicated that there was sufficient alcohol content – or that the gin was “gunpowder proof” – and the gin was allowed on board.

This means that in the UK, a spirit with 57.15% is 100 degrees proof. A spirit with 40% is 70 degrees proof.

To make matters more complicated, the American definition of “proof” is very different. Alcohol proof in the United States is defined as twice the percentage of alcohol by volume. Consequently, 100 degrees proof gin contains 50% alcohol."

 

[Mainsail]

Interesting post OP.

What are the RCWs that allow the firearm to be seized? What RCW allows the State or County to take the person's CPL away?

I don't drink outside the home (and even there it's a glass of wine maybe once a week) so I'm not familiar with those actions. I try to know all the RCWs that pertain to carry but have never heard a DUI could take a person's CPL.

Also, does the DUI remove their right to conceal, or their right to carry altogether?

 

[Smoke]

I took my last drink in December of 1982 (Warm Heiniken if anyone's curious). I really don't have a dog in this fight but I don't think mere possession of a firearm should be a crime.

In Colorado it isn't illegal to carry in a bar and it's not specifically illegal to consume alcohol while armed , it's illegal to be under the influence but there's not a BAC that's the limit.

I'm not aware that it's really caused any significant issues. I'm pretty sure the law would have been changed if it had.

If I was still a drinker I'm positive that someone I've never met preaching at me and shaming me on the Internet for doing something they disapprove of wouldn't change my behavior.

You do you.

 

[Alton]

I understand everyone’s frustrations but I still worry more about that drunk killing someone in the 5 to 6,000 pound automobile, than what they have on their hip. In 1970 I gained a sister and two brothers after a drunk killed my aunt and uncle and severely injured my brothers and sister. In 1965 my wife’s parents were killed along with eight passengers in the other car which was driven by a drunk, he was the only survivor. My wife at the time was 4 and was riding in another car.

 

[haywood]

I got my LTC in 2004. I have been armed since then. I quit drinking also. I just don’t get the point of drinking. Back in the day I did that. I got the T-shirt. It was fun. I don’t need that these days.