Average of 3 rounds...

Sometimes I think new guns and ammo are like new fishing reels and lures. They are designed more to catch buyers than to actually meet the needs of the buyers. Anyone else every feel that way? I mean those that carry handguns for self-defense and to enforce the laws of the land can sit down and list their needs in a portable handgun for everyday carry carry and defense of their and others lives. Doctors that have studied the forensic pathology sciences and tactical physiology know what it takes to shut down the human body the fastest so why has mechanical engineering and the tactical physiology sciences gotten together to design a from the ground upon 22nd Century Handgun of the FUTURE is my question that deals with ideal ergonomics to fit all hands, multi caliber with an "all new ultimate man stopping rounds" developed according the latest physiological and neurological information on the human body to help people of all sizes and types use the most effective weapon platforms? Sounds simple doesn't it yet anyone that has ever been in any type of human combat "Knows" it is anything but simple but one of the most complicate subjects they can tackle due to all "the unknown variables" that can and do throw all kind of monkey wrenches into the process!
 
SOMETIMES!

Sorry for the double post! Between my computer and my sorry internet service blinking in and out it posted twice.

Sometimes I think new guns and ammo are like new fishing reels and lures. They are designed more to catch buyers than to actually meet the needs of the buyers. Anyone else every feel that way?

I mean those that carry handguns for self-defense and to enforce the laws of the land can sit down and list their needs in a portable handgun for everyday carry and defense of their and others lives. Doctors that have studied the forensic pathology sciences and tactical physiology know what it takes to shut down the human body the fastest so why has mechanical engineering and the tactical physiology sciences NOT gotten together to design a from the ground upon 22nd Century Handgun of the FUTURE is my question that deals with ideal ergonomics to fit all hands, multi caliber with "all new ultimate man stopping rounds" developed according the latest physiological and neurological information on the human body to help people of all sizes and types use the most effective weapon platforms? Sounds simple doesn't it yet anyone that has ever been in any type of human combat "Knows" it is anything but simple but one of the most complicate subjects they can tackle due to all "the unknown variables" that can and do throw all kind of monkey wrenches into the process!
 
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... With all the discussion about gunfire in these threads, it is also important to note that (about) 90% of self-defense incidents involving a firearm have no shots fired, so deterrence is statistically much more important than caliber, bullet type, magazine capacity or other stuff we like to debate. :)

+1. This is the Gospel truth. I had my service revolver/pistol out many times over the years but never had to use it... and yes, I know I’ve been blessed and the FIRST thing I did when I signed out-of-service for the last time was to give thanks to The Lord for this (as I am no more worthy than anyone else).
 
I loved it when I was told to go pick up the Company payroll the first time when I was stationed on Okinawa. I was told to go to the armory where I was issued a Colt 1911 .45 ACP auto pistol with carry belt as the duty officer assigned to pick up and issue the Company Payroll that month. The only thing was I was NOT issued any magazine or ammo for said firearm which of course I questioned. I was informed the U.S. Army policy was that if I was robbed to give the payroll up without resistance. OK, I said but then why issue me a sidearm as robbers would not know it was not loaded and just shoot me anyway with me having any way to defend myself. The armory Sargent said the Army did not want the liability if I or my driver "accidently" shot some Okinawan" civilian in defense of the payroll so had decided that no ammo would be issued as Official Army Policy. Typical STINKING Army thinking Second Lieutenants like privates are expendable assets. :mad:
 
trying to teach my kids situational awareness - even as simple as looking where you are walking. Make sure you're not running across a parking lot without looking, not stepping on toys.. etc

One thing that has always amazed me is the large quantity of people that in fact do not look where they are walking. And I do mean walking in one direction while looking at another.
 
1st there is my general distrust of and for the FBI, however, if I recall that study is full of holes. It takes into account all the officers killed in ambush, so we assume no shots by the leo. It also takes a shooting of say where officer draws shoots 3 rounds, moves to cover and shoots 3 rounds, moves to better position shoots 2 rounds ending the fight, AS THREE SEPARATE SHOOTING INCIDENTS. 3 into 8 = 2.66 round up to 3.
Just my 2 cents I think we way over think this. A lot depends on where you are and what your doing. To quote Clint Smith "if you wander around looking like food your going to get eaten". If your cursing the Helmand Provence, then maybe you should have a rifle and a hole piss pot full of ammo and mags. Running to the local store to get a loaf of bread and a gal. of milk........................for me that's a little something to drop in my pocket. Something that I can hit what I am aiming at( with ease and not much concentration), and something that will go bang when I drop the hammer. To me these are more important than cal., # of rounds, etc.
 
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One thing that has always amazed me is the large quantity of people that in fact do not look where they are walking. And I do mean walking in one direction while looking at another.

I'm texting with one hand, with the other I'm checking out my facebook page, and keeping up with twits from my favorite cileb.on my watch, and you want me to watch where I'm walking???? Just wait till I get behind the wheel:eek:.
 
During the decade of the 1970's I owned a small gun shop in New Hampshire. New Hampshire is not a high crime state but on four occasions I had confrontations in the store with bad guys who were there to mug me/kill me. The police later told me the bad guys were dissuaded by the fact that I was conspicuously armed. In one case the bad guys were there with a pocket full of shotgun shells intending to load a used shotgun off the rack and kill me. In another encounter I foolishly stopped to help a "stranded" motorist late one night only to find a couple of guys looking to mug me- a ratty 1911 pointed at one guy's navel dissuaded them. Point one: there is a limited deterrent effect from being armed; Point 2: Except during the truck encounter I was NOT mentally prepared and probably would not have survived if the other encounters had escalated; Point three: LUCK has as much to do with survival as anything else. So, when we agonize over caliber and capacity, and when we train to react to confrontation it might be well to remember that Old Blind Fortune has a great deal to do with it.
 
With all the discussion about gunfire in these threads, it is also important to note that (about) 90% of self-defense incidents involving a firearm have no shots fired, so deterrence is statistically much more important than caliber, bullet type, magazine capacity or other stuff we like to debate. :)

This^^^. In my one incident, my hand stayed on my gun's grip, the gun and hand stayed in the pocket, and the big, young, strong tweaker didn't call my bluff (which wasn't a bluff). Without that gun things would have turned out differently.
 
A friend was told by her CC instructor to empty her gun if she ever used it as proof that she was totally frightened by the attacker.
 
Personally, I tend to strongly agree with the self-defense explanations, cataloged experiences, and gunfighting logic of retired Sheriff’s Deputy Lieutenant Dave Spaulding—Strongly agree!

What Really Happens In A Gunfight?

COMBATIVE PISTOL: The Epistemology of Dave Spaulding – CIVILIAN DEFENDER

Furthermore, I also tend to agree with the recorded physical behaviors of NYPD Stakeout Unit gunfighter Jim Cirillo.

(Get ‘um while you can!)

9781581606492: Jim Cirillo's Tales Of The Stakeout Squad - AbeBooks - Kirchner, Paul: 1581606494

Jim Cirillo's Tales of the Stakeout Squad by Paul Kirchner (E-book) for sale online | eBay

Now to add a few comments of my own:

I feel much better about carrying a snub with those statistics. I also feel I can get my snub into action quicker than my autos.

I would suggest that you shouldn’t. Moreover, ‘feelings’ are irrelevant. Performance is all that counts. When the other guy is better armed than you are then it’s reasonably certain that you are the person who’s going to get screwed. ;)

Anyone who has never happened upon a gunfight would likely be paralyzed at the speed with which they occur . . .

Personally, I don’t think the preceding remark quite says it! What has always amazed me is the very sudden surprise that often goes along with self-defense events.

If a defendant has the advantage of prior training then his proprioceptive reflexes and physical coordination should be able to do all of the fighting for him, and THAT is where the real speed comes from. (The event is already over before the conscious mind is able to sort things out!)

Reminds me of the old adage "the quickest draw is already having your gun in your hand when the action starts". While you can't walk around with a gun in your hand all the time, I'm guessing this speaks more towards situational awareness.

Better yet, if you have a moment to yourself BEFORE walking into a self-defense event, try hiding your pistol in the armpit of your support arm. :D

When I attended THUNDER RANCH handgun course 28 years ago, Clint Smith started classroom session by quoting FBI statistics.

1) Average rounds shot 3-5.
2) Average time expired 3-5 seconds.
3) Average distance 3-7 feet.

Yes, but this is also well dated information that has been largely refuted by Dave Spaulding’s written records and work, and it is also at wide variance with Jim Cirillo’s well known and well recorded personal gunfighting behaviors.

Any gun on your person is better than a gun left at home. .380, 9mm, or .38 special all have stopped bad guys many times, and will continue to.

If the word ‘stopped’ means what I think it does then actually each of these calibers (or chamberings) have failed to ‘stop’ far more times than any of them have succeeded, and that is the truth.

In fact all antipersonnel ‘combat calibers’ below 45 Long Colt have long been known to be highly inconsistent ‘stoppers’. This, of course, includes the 45 ACP pistol that I have carried around with me for 14 to 16 hours a day for more than 30 years, now.

The principal tradeoffs with combat calibers are rates-of-fire, and recoil manageability. A self-defense gunman has to be careful not to ‘outgun himself’—A subtle, but, very real phenomenon which I believe has, and has had, a deleterious effect on the combat marksmanship of many law enforcement personnel who continue to use hefty, sharp recoiling combat calibers like: 10mm, 357 SIG, 40 S&W, and 357 Magnum.

Having to look down the muzzle of someone else’s handgun is disturbing, to say the least! During the first half of my life I spent a whole lot of time hunting all different sorts of wild game—Some of it dangerous. Consequently I have watched many wild creatures get hit and die in front of my gun. (Something that I am not proud of today.)

Looking back from where I am now, I find myself to be in complete agreement with the ballistic hypotheses and conclusions of both Dr. Michael Courtney and his very well educated wife, Amy (the other Dr. Courtney).

Dr. M. Courtney has stated:

With a (combat-caliber)(Ed.) handgun, no wounding mechanism can be relied on to produce incapacitation 100% of the time within the short span of most gunfights.

Selecting a good self-defense load is only a small part of surviving a gunfight. You have to hit an attacker to hurt him, and you need a good plan for surviving until your hits take effect.

Get good training, practice regularly, learn to use cover, and pray that you will never have a lethal force encounter armed only with a (combat-caliber)(Ed.) handgun.

The ideal performance standards for a (marginally) effective ‘combat-caliber’ CQB pistol bullet are,

(1) A minimum of 450 ft lb of muzzle energy,

(2) A muzzle velocity of, at least, 1,250 fps,

(3) Penetration at, or about, 12 inches in a standard ballistic block of gelatin; and,

(4) The RECOIL CONTROLLABILITY of either a 45 ACP, or a 9x19mm handgun.”*

It is combat caliber logic like this that has impressed me the most; and this is the reason ‘why’ I strongly prefer (and have preferred) to mainly use a 45 ACP pistol for all contemplated self-defense work.



* Dr. Michael Courtney, http://arxiv.org/pdf/0803.3051.pdf.

(Yes, I know that the Drs. Courtney have aroused a lot of online controversy within various internet firearm communities. Be that as it may, as I have indicated, I too share in the above opinion(s)—Which I assure the reader have not been casually reached.
 
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It seems that an awful lot of energy is spent trying to determine number of shots, distance of encounter and time elapsed.
It’s all interesting to a degree but I believe that where those shots go is the most important factor.
The fewer the shots, the more important but even with a belt fed weapon if you miss the first shot or two the more doodoo you’re going to be in.
 
It seems that an awful lot of energy is spent trying to determine number of shots, distance of encounter and time elapsed.

It’s all interesting to a degree but I believe that where those shots go is the most important factor.

The fewer the shots, the more important but even with a belt fed weapon if you miss the first shot or two the more doodoo you’re going to be in.

Yes, I agree; and, after literally decades of practice and competition, I too would say that shot placement and grouping is everything—Everything! But there is a trick to it.

It is generally agreed (and, therefore, largely beyond argument) that whoever lands the first shot, or shots, tends to win a CQB gunfight. Consequently, I have long believed that pistoleros who regularly practice at distances of: 10, 12, and 15 yards, rather than at much closer range, are actually giving themselves an advantageous edge as they move into a looming gunfight.

An advantage which I have noticed Jim Cirillo gave himself at every opportunity. Whenever possible Cirillo didn't wait; instead he attacked first and, ideally, by more or less surprise! I've read many comments by Jim Cirillo and Bill Allard that indicate sudden, precise, and rapid shot placement meant everything to them. ;)
 
... Whenever possible Cirillo didn't wait; instead he attacked first and, ideally, by more or less surprise! ...

I wonder... How would this play out in a civilian self defense claim in court?

Or even in police shootings in today's legal / political / cultural climate?
 
I'd use a bit different logic. From what I recall, there are about 10,000 defensive uses of a handgun by civilians each year. Maybe 1,000 where a round is fired by the civilian. So lets say 30,000 defensive gun uses in the last 3 years.

Video is everywhere. I'd put out a challenge to the "5/9/50 rounds aren't enough" folks to come up with 3 civilian defender cases in the last three years (.01%) where an actual civilian self defender (not an off duty LEO) either lost their life or were severely injured because they ran out of ammo. Not because they had crappy tactics or because they weren't aware of what was going on around them. Because they ran out of ammo. They exist, but I don't think there are many.
 
If one goes and watches the body and in-car video of police involved shootings one will clearly see that many of the incidents are not solved in three rounds.

That is just a simple fact.
 
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