If only I had your omniscience. Totally wrong, but keep on believing that.
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Inserting yourself into a shooting can have deadly consequences . . .
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If only I had your omniscience. Totally wrong, but keep on believing that.
The Good Samaritan was a hero for sure. There are a lot of good points made above that could be discussed further.
One thing that always stuck with me from my training was to always be thinking of different scenarios that could happen while on or off duty and how I would respond.
The above incident is an example of what could happen to anyone that carries a gun to defend self or family and has not perhaps given the time to consider outcomes of a self defense shooting.
I agree with what geeollie said. Have nothing in your hands when the police arrive and would add to have your hands up or in plain sight.
There are a lot of good YouTube videos from reputable individuals on how to respond to a self defense situation and the aftermath actions that should be taken.
My prayers go out to his family and may we all learn something positive from the incident discussed.
One thing that always stuck with me from my training was to always be thinking of different scenarios that could happen while on or off duty and how I would respond.
The above incident is an example of what could happen to anyone that carries a gun to defend self or family and has not perhaps given the time to consider outcomes of a self defense shooting.
I agree with what geeollie said. Have nothing in your hands when the police arrive and would add to have your hands up or in plain sight.
There are a lot of good YouTube videos from reputable individuals on how to respond to a self defense situation and the aftermath actions that should be taken.
My prayers go out to his family and may we all learn something positive from the incident discussed.
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Good that Hurley was on hand to dispatch the shooter, sad the price he paid for picking up the AR.
I am interested to know, was a Hurley Carrying concealed? did he have a CCW permit? Had he been through training for the permit?
I ask because the instructor I had for CCW permit covered similar types of possibilities, instructing us to place weapons on the ground and raise hands on the police's arrival on such a scene.
Again, Hurley was a hero, sad it ended as it did.
Steve W
I am interested to know, was a Hurley Carrying concealed? did he have a CCW permit? Had he been through training for the permit?
I ask because the instructor I had for CCW permit covered similar types of possibilities, instructing us to place weapons on the ground and raise hands on the police's arrival on such a scene.
Again, Hurley was a hero, sad it ended as it did.
Steve W
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Marshal Tom
Member
I teach and do CCW classes with a group of instructors. Included in our classroom portion of the class, we discuss what to do in the aftermath of a shooting, what to do when the cops arrive on scene as well as what the cops are likely expecting from you upon their arrival. One of the main points is that you don't have a firearm in your hand when they arrive! Don't answer the door with a gun in your hand. If possible be on the phone with the dispatcher to let them know who you are, where you are and how you are dressed. This also holds true if in an outdoor scenario like this one. If you are too busy at the time ie. covering a downed suspect, try to have someone else do this for you.
cgt4570
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As an NRA cert instructor, a CCW holder and a God fearing and Constitution loving Patriot, I would defend any LEO till the death in a similar situation. That said, it's always guns down, hands up when the cops arrive after a shooting event while they sort it out. If a cop broke the law and killed an innocent hero, that's on him. The law will prevail.
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This comes under the old English saying, " to see the elephant". Unless repeated training, no one knows how they will react as Each and Every Situation is Different, thus individuals will react Differently unless trained very well.
Condolences to Mr Hurley's family.
Condolences to Mr Hurley's family.
I am not going to comment on the tragic ending, but I will say that I certainly hope there is someone that will be there to act if something similar begins unfolding and my loved ones are nearby. My condolences and prayers to the family of the good Samaritan. He was a hero.
I can only think back to what my CCW instructor told us and that was simply put, 'Don't be a hero unless you and those with you are threatened.' Meaning, is a weapon being pointed in my direction? Having said that, I ask myself, 'How would I react in the same situation?' Adrenaline amped, trying my level best to asses the situation in a micro-second I for one would be scared s***less. I'd like to think that I'd have the wherewithal to dial 911 and pray to God that the LEOs arrived on scene forthwith and that I was not forced into a situation where I had to draw my weapon.
Sorry, but I feel that I should contribute another perspective. Ever since the accident that left me disabled, I have had a disdain for armchair quarterbacking, and I hope that this isn't mistaken for it.
None of us were present for this tragic incident, and we weren't in either person's shoes, so we don't really know what was running through either person's minds, plus we don't know how much time lapsed between the neutralizing officer's arrival and his discharging of his own weapon at Mr Hurley.
We don't know what went through Mr Hurley's mind, but he could have been a conscientious shooter that was attempting to make the assailant's weapon safe, or he might have been influenced by numerous Hollywood scenarios where the police get weapons away from the grasp of the assailant no matter how dead they are.
Other than knowing that he was responding to an officer down call with an active shooter, we don't know what all was going through the LEO's mind. For all we know, the officer that shot Mr Hurley was influenced by the rash of bureaucrats that are throwing officers under the bus and wanted justice for his/her fallen colleagues. Or perhaps he/she just reacted to neutralize the apparent threat. We don't know how much time the officer took to assess the situation before firing the fatal shots.
Any conclusions arrived at here are purely the product of speculation, that most likely are not arrived at with all of the facts in evidence. How would we act if we found ourselves in a similar situation? None of us really knows, because the mind works in many atypical ways when one is under stress. We know how we may train, or how we plan should we find ourselves in a similar situation. Even for those that have "seen the elephant", how you may react is unpredictable.
I frequently am amazed at when I view someone's proud display of their EDC, not once have I seen a: spare change of underwear, a fresh Depends, or a "barf bag", but all could be an invaluable tool in the event that any of us need to exercise lethal force in order to protect ourselves or our loved ones!
None of us were present for this tragic incident, and we weren't in either person's shoes, so we don't really know what was running through either person's minds, plus we don't know how much time lapsed between the neutralizing officer's arrival and his discharging of his own weapon at Mr Hurley.
We don't know what went through Mr Hurley's mind, but he could have been a conscientious shooter that was attempting to make the assailant's weapon safe, or he might have been influenced by numerous Hollywood scenarios where the police get weapons away from the grasp of the assailant no matter how dead they are.
Other than knowing that he was responding to an officer down call with an active shooter, we don't know what all was going through the LEO's mind. For all we know, the officer that shot Mr Hurley was influenced by the rash of bureaucrats that are throwing officers under the bus and wanted justice for his/her fallen colleagues. Or perhaps he/she just reacted to neutralize the apparent threat. We don't know how much time the officer took to assess the situation before firing the fatal shots.
Any conclusions arrived at here are purely the product of speculation, that most likely are not arrived at with all of the facts in evidence. How would we act if we found ourselves in a similar situation? None of us really knows, because the mind works in many atypical ways when one is under stress. We know how we may train, or how we plan should we find ourselves in a similar situation. Even for those that have "seen the elephant", how you may react is unpredictable.
I frequently am amazed at when I view someone's proud display of their EDC, not once have I seen a: spare change of underwear, a fresh Depends, or a "barf bag", but all could be an invaluable tool in the event that any of us need to exercise lethal force in order to protect ourselves or our loved ones!
crstrode
Member
Fat chance.
Not shooting people is always a course of action worthy of consideration.
First of all…
…Mr. Hurley is a hero based upon all currently available information. He did what he thought best, and most evidence suggests he likely saved countless others.
I applaud him as he was selfless and fearless; in essence, he sacrificed his life for his fellow man though that was the unexpected outcome.
He did not ask if he was personally in jeopardy or if his loved ones were; he simply acted as a hero. He faced danger head on.
Be thou at peace, sir.
That said, I have personally involved myself in situations where I displayed a gun whilst not readily identifiable as a LEO. That was both on duty and off duty. In my areas of operations there were (are) protocols to help identify the 'good guys' though they are not foolproof. They did work to keep me safe, however. No, I will never discuss those protocols here.
As others have noted, it is best not to have a gun in hand when the cavalry arrives. But that was not always possible.
I could never run away from an armed assailant.
Be safe.
…Mr. Hurley is a hero based upon all currently available information. He did what he thought best, and most evidence suggests he likely saved countless others.
I applaud him as he was selfless and fearless; in essence, he sacrificed his life for his fellow man though that was the unexpected outcome.
He did not ask if he was personally in jeopardy or if his loved ones were; he simply acted as a hero. He faced danger head on.
Be thou at peace, sir.
That said, I have personally involved myself in situations where I displayed a gun whilst not readily identifiable as a LEO. That was both on duty and off duty. In my areas of operations there were (are) protocols to help identify the 'good guys' though they are not foolproof. They did work to keep me safe, however. No, I will never discuss those protocols here.
As others have noted, it is best not to have a gun in hand when the cavalry arrives. But that was not always possible.
I could never run away from an armed assailant.
Be safe.
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I do not believe that Mr. Hurley "sacrificed" himself. From the information we have available, he saw the murder of the officer take place, decided to do the right thing, and shot the bad guy. This was the right thing to do, and if we're taking Arvada PD's word for it, likely prevented further violence against police officers. What then apparently happened was that Mr. Hurley picked up the suspect's rifle or was otherwise armed when a responding officer showed up and shot Mr. Hurley, killing him.
This is absolutely a tragedy. We don't know what the officer saw nor what went through their head, but the end result is that a police officer shot the good guy after the good guy shot the bad guy, after the bad guy shot a cop. That is a terrible outcome all around.
I think framing it as a sacrifice is incorrect. The man put his life on the line against a murderous scumbag in defense of his fellow man, and triumphed over the murderer. Had he died in that endeavor, sure. Instead, he was negligently shot by a third party, who was also trying to do the right thing themselves, though as a trained agent of the state. Framing it as a sacrifice inspires an image of a firefighter perishing trying to save someone in a burning building, something noble that could not be prevented, and the cost of doing the right thing. It also makes it problematic to question the factors involved for risk of cheapening the sacrifice.
I've got no issue calling out bad police shootings, of which there have been many, but I can absolutely see this playing out as a tragic mistake by a scared and amped up police officer responding to a call of an officer down, one that should not have happened, and should be prevented from happening again, but not one that should have the police officer on the inside of a cell or anything like that. On Mr. Hurley's side, it brings up the classic question of is your CCW to get you and yours to safety, or to stop an act of evil occurring? It certainly reinforces the idea that you should absolutely not be visibly armed around the police, how differently would this have gone if Mr. Hurley had holstered his pistol, not picked up the rifle, and turned himself in calmly with his hands up to one of the responding officers after the scene was secured?
I think these are all valid discussions for a forum on this topic, and also acknowledge that by using his carry piece in this manner at all, Mr. Hurley was already waaaaay statistically unlucky, and even moreso with the tragic way his life ended. I truly believe he did the right thing and likely prevented further loss of life. I also believe his death should have some value in the tragedy by being a teachable moment to both carriers and cops, Mr. Hurley died tragically after putting his life on the line to try and save the lives of his fellow men, and I'd like to think that using the information gleaned from this tragedy to save the lives of others would be in that spirit.
This is absolutely a tragedy. We don't know what the officer saw nor what went through their head, but the end result is that a police officer shot the good guy after the good guy shot the bad guy, after the bad guy shot a cop. That is a terrible outcome all around.
I think framing it as a sacrifice is incorrect. The man put his life on the line against a murderous scumbag in defense of his fellow man, and triumphed over the murderer. Had he died in that endeavor, sure. Instead, he was negligently shot by a third party, who was also trying to do the right thing themselves, though as a trained agent of the state. Framing it as a sacrifice inspires an image of a firefighter perishing trying to save someone in a burning building, something noble that could not be prevented, and the cost of doing the right thing. It also makes it problematic to question the factors involved for risk of cheapening the sacrifice.
I've got no issue calling out bad police shootings, of which there have been many, but I can absolutely see this playing out as a tragic mistake by a scared and amped up police officer responding to a call of an officer down, one that should not have happened, and should be prevented from happening again, but not one that should have the police officer on the inside of a cell or anything like that. On Mr. Hurley's side, it brings up the classic question of is your CCW to get you and yours to safety, or to stop an act of evil occurring? It certainly reinforces the idea that you should absolutely not be visibly armed around the police, how differently would this have gone if Mr. Hurley had holstered his pistol, not picked up the rifle, and turned himself in calmly with his hands up to one of the responding officers after the scene was secured?
I think these are all valid discussions for a forum on this topic, and also acknowledge that by using his carry piece in this manner at all, Mr. Hurley was already waaaaay statistically unlucky, and even moreso with the tragic way his life ended. I truly believe he did the right thing and likely prevented further loss of life. I also believe his death should have some value in the tragedy by being a teachable moment to both carriers and cops, Mr. Hurley died tragically after putting his life on the line to try and save the lives of his fellow men, and I'd like to think that using the information gleaned from this tragedy to save the lives of others would be in that spirit.
I'd expect more 'friendly fire' incidents as the number of states giving approval to Constitutional Carry. With concealed carry permitting, at least there is some minimal training, although it seemed inadequate in this case.
smithra_66
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Right. This guy did the right thing. He may have handled the rest of the situation in a bad way. I know that if police are arriving on a scene like that, I'm going to have my gun holstered and hands up and shouting to communicate what happened.
I'm sure this isn't the total story and that is yet to come.
There's really no way to give absolutes in any situation like this.
The example you're posting about happened in a non-constitutional carry state (much as I wish my beloved Colorado would change that, fat chance), and the permit training as you noted did nothing to result in a positive outcome. We've got plenty of examples of blue-on-blue shootings involving plain clothes cops being killed by their buddies, I'm not sure why you think the joke classes are going to make a meaningful difference.
Until anybody has any stats otherwise on it, many states have not required a permit for years, and that concern, just like the other blood on the streets arguments, have been shown to be nonsensical pearl clutching that thankfully did not deter some states from recognizing the 2A rights of their citizens.
smithra_66
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No "training" for concealed carry in my state and that is up to the individual, not the gub'mint to mandate anyway.
Not all bad things can be stopped. It's complex world.
It's wild that even on a gun board, we have to explain constitutional carry even to our own gun enthusiasts.
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We all have opinions. Mine is that having a lot more completely untrained people on the streets with guns will have a net result of more unnecessary injuries and deaths. I'm not in charge of this stuff, and have no urge to be.
The problem is your opinion favors restricting the rights of others and is backed by absolutely no data. We've had plenty of time to see your concerns realized, but the data point you've got here is an argument against you.
We've got a guy with CCW training arguably making a tragic wrong choice, we've got a cop who is trained making the wrong choice and shooting him, what's the argument against allowing people to carry a gun without costly and time consuming restrictions here?
