Inserting yourself into a shooting can have deadly consequences . . .
- Thread starter Muss Muggins
- Start date
I was present at a 'good shoot' of a drunk, suicidal, angry man who had kidnapped a woman, tried to rape her, then confronted police - the woman escaped.
Once the shooting was done, a police lieutenant with 20 years experience (or one year of experience x 20) ran up to the still twitching decedent, picked up the man's shotgun from where it fell and rolled out of the guy's reach when he was hit, and only put the shotgun back down when corrected by a more wise officer on the inner perimeter.
People do weird stuff under stress.
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Jon651
Member
I am very conflicted by this story.
I'm not certain I would be using the word "mistakenly" to describe this shooting. The police got a call to a man with an AR-15 who had shot an officer at this location, and upon arriving promptly shot the man holding the AR-15 standing near the deceased officer. In defense of the officer who shot him, I don't think he mistakenly did this. He TRAGICALLY did this, but it wasn't a mistake.
I'm not quite certain what Mr. Hurley's thoughts were when he picked up the AR-15 from the first shooter. A lot of people take the time to consider what they will do in an active shooter scenario - but how many of us have given more than a moment of thought on what we need to do NEXT?
Many months ago, the question was asked in a thread on this forum if someone was armed and breaking into your house, would you call your friends/neighbors knowing they were armed and closer than the police. My answer was and continues to be NO - because I could not live with myself if the police arrived and thought it was my neighbor (coming to help me) who was the armed intruder. This shooting in Arvada reinforces my belief.
Unfortunately, I feel we will see more and more incidents like this shooting what with the proliferation of "open carry" and "Constitutional carry" laws and an ever-increasing number of visible weapons in public. The police are not superhuman - they have no way of determining the Good Guys from the Bad Guys in too many of these situations. There are some nightmare scenarios coming - and I feel sorry for many of the officers who have to insert themselves into these situations with no easy or good choices.
I'm not certain I would be using the word "mistakenly" to describe this shooting. The police got a call to a man with an AR-15 who had shot an officer at this location, and upon arriving promptly shot the man holding the AR-15 standing near the deceased officer. In defense of the officer who shot him, I don't think he mistakenly did this. He TRAGICALLY did this, but it wasn't a mistake.
I'm not quite certain what Mr. Hurley's thoughts were when he picked up the AR-15 from the first shooter. A lot of people take the time to consider what they will do in an active shooter scenario - but how many of us have given more than a moment of thought on what we need to do NEXT?
Many months ago, the question was asked in a thread on this forum if someone was armed and breaking into your house, would you call your friends/neighbors knowing they were armed and closer than the police. My answer was and continues to be NO - because I could not live with myself if the police arrived and thought it was my neighbor (coming to help me) who was the armed intruder. This shooting in Arvada reinforces my belief.
Unfortunately, I feel we will see more and more incidents like this shooting what with the proliferation of "open carry" and "Constitutional carry" laws and an ever-increasing number of visible weapons in public. The police are not superhuman - they have no way of determining the Good Guys from the Bad Guys in too many of these situations. There are some nightmare scenarios coming - and I feel sorry for many of the officers who have to insert themselves into these situations with no easy or good choices.
OP
And yet in your "no firm policy," you have a "never," and an "absolutely NOT . . . "
The answer to picking up the gun is held within many questions to which we don't know the answer. A couple are "How many others are standing around?" "Is the downed suspect dead or still alive?" "Do I hear sirens?" "Do other people have their guns drawn?" "Do I need to reload, or just holster?" "Can I aid the downed officer, or do I need to watch the suspect?"
None of these questions need to be answered if you're on the highway headed home . . .
The answer to picking up the gun is held within many questions to which we don't know the answer. A couple are "How many others are standing around?" "Is the downed suspect dead or still alive?" "Do I hear sirens?" "Do other people have their guns drawn?" "Do I need to reload, or just holster?" "Can I aid the downed officer, or do I need to watch the suspect?"
None of these questions need to be answered if you're on the highway headed home . . .
Jon, I understand your point. I don't disagree, either. But I am using the word "mistakenly" in the sense that the cop who shot the good samaritan mistook him for the cop killer.
As my Army instructor taught in the IED course, if you didn't put it down, don't pick it up.
As others noted above, picking up the AR may have irrevocably led to a tragic conclusion. Much is not known here. Prayers for Mr Hurley and his family.
As others noted above, picking up the AR may have irrevocably led to a tragic conclusion. Much is not known here. Prayers for Mr Hurley and his family.
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Echo40
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People say they cannot predict how one would react in such a scenario, but I'm going to be bold here and doubt the validity of that statement. I presume that many folks can predict precisely how they would react, but they're ashamed of it, so they deny it, they push it aside and attempt to reassure themselves that their reaction is the smart, sensible thing to do, comforting themselves further with any number of tangible reasons not to get involved.
Maybe it's just me, but I know exactly how I would react... I would be afraid, shocked, I would probably have the urge to flee, or depending on the situation an urge to stay and fight. Natural emotional responses towards danger, how practically anybody who wasn't trained to deal with such situations would respond. The difference is, I don't hide from it, I acknowledge it as something that I don't like about I'm myself, something that I want to change. I don't want to be afraid, I want to be brave, I want to be something more than just an assortment of biological material driven by a series of emotional/instinctive impulses which are inherently selfish because they are primarily intended to help ensure the survival of the individual organism, with any urges to protect others just being more selfish instincts intended to help ensure the survival of family. I want to be the person who springs into action and helps others in danger, even if it means putting myself in danger because I admire people like that. Not for selfish reasons like the desire for recognition or respect from others, but because it is the right thing to do.
I'll admit that it is a struggle, it's easier to ignore others in need, and there are plenty of valid reasons not to get involved in the affairs of others, but regardless, that isn't who I want to be. I've been in danger myself, yet everyone just ignored it because it wasn't their problem, I spent years hating them for that, for their callous indifference towards myself and others, until I got older and realized that although I had never seen anyone else in danger like I was, my first response towards others in need was that it wasn't my concern.
I want to overcome that weakness of character, so I acknowledge that it exists within me and I use that as motivation to change, to become stronger and push myself outside of my comfort zone.
So yeah, I know precisely how I would react. I would put aside my fear and intervene, regardless of the danger involved, because frankly I would much rather die a hero and succeed at being something more than live out an otherwise empty existence in which I never did anything particularly meaningful.
Granted, it's easy enough for me to say, because unlike others I don't have an awful lot to lose, there's nobody who needs me, much less who couldn't survive in my absence, but even if that were to change, I doubt that my feelings on the matter would. I still couldn't turn a blind eye to someone else in danger just because I have much to lose.
In the end, I acknowledge that I don't have what it takes to be a full-time hero like a Policeman, Firefighter, EMT, or anything else like that, otherwise I would be employed in such a position and devote my life to it. But should I ever encounter someone in need with nobody else willing or able to help them, then I will lend a hand.
Now maybe I'm dead wrong here, maybe I'm just projecting my own guilt regarding past insecurities upon others. Like I said, I acknowledge my weaknesses so that I might overcome them through effort and determination, but assuming that I'm right and any of what I've been rambling about resonates with anyone else here, then I implore you, don't hide from something that you don't like about yourself. Do what you feel is right, regardless of your fears, acknowledge it, rise above it, and if you ever feel the call to aid someone in need, then answer it. Because believe me, it's better to die doing what you know is right than living with regret over what you failed to do.
And hey, if you truly feel that there are others who need you and cannot carry on without you, then by all means, stay as far away from a dangerous situation as possible for their sake, but don't turn around and dishonor the dead for their heroism by criticizing their brave decision to intervene on the behalf of others. Surely they left behind a family of their own who will sorely miss them, but perhaps the heroism of their dearly departed helps to ease their pain, and the last thing they would want to see is their sacrifice criticized by random strangers who lacked the gumption to do what he did in the first place, regardless of any potentially fatal mistakes he might have made in the process.
Maybe it's just me, but I know exactly how I would react... I would be afraid, shocked, I would probably have the urge to flee, or depending on the situation an urge to stay and fight. Natural emotional responses towards danger, how practically anybody who wasn't trained to deal with such situations would respond. The difference is, I don't hide from it, I acknowledge it as something that I don't like about I'm myself, something that I want to change. I don't want to be afraid, I want to be brave, I want to be something more than just an assortment of biological material driven by a series of emotional/instinctive impulses which are inherently selfish because they are primarily intended to help ensure the survival of the individual organism, with any urges to protect others just being more selfish instincts intended to help ensure the survival of family. I want to be the person who springs into action and helps others in danger, even if it means putting myself in danger because I admire people like that. Not for selfish reasons like the desire for recognition or respect from others, but because it is the right thing to do.
I'll admit that it is a struggle, it's easier to ignore others in need, and there are plenty of valid reasons not to get involved in the affairs of others, but regardless, that isn't who I want to be. I've been in danger myself, yet everyone just ignored it because it wasn't their problem, I spent years hating them for that, for their callous indifference towards myself and others, until I got older and realized that although I had never seen anyone else in danger like I was, my first response towards others in need was that it wasn't my concern.
I want to overcome that weakness of character, so I acknowledge that it exists within me and I use that as motivation to change, to become stronger and push myself outside of my comfort zone.
So yeah, I know precisely how I would react. I would put aside my fear and intervene, regardless of the danger involved, because frankly I would much rather die a hero and succeed at being something more than live out an otherwise empty existence in which I never did anything particularly meaningful.
Granted, it's easy enough for me to say, because unlike others I don't have an awful lot to lose, there's nobody who needs me, much less who couldn't survive in my absence, but even if that were to change, I doubt that my feelings on the matter would. I still couldn't turn a blind eye to someone else in danger just because I have much to lose.
In the end, I acknowledge that I don't have what it takes to be a full-time hero like a Policeman, Firefighter, EMT, or anything else like that, otherwise I would be employed in such a position and devote my life to it. But should I ever encounter someone in need with nobody else willing or able to help them, then I will lend a hand.
Now maybe I'm dead wrong here, maybe I'm just projecting my own guilt regarding past insecurities upon others. Like I said, I acknowledge my weaknesses so that I might overcome them through effort and determination, but assuming that I'm right and any of what I've been rambling about resonates with anyone else here, then I implore you, don't hide from something that you don't like about yourself. Do what you feel is right, regardless of your fears, acknowledge it, rise above it, and if you ever feel the call to aid someone in need, then answer it. Because believe me, it's better to die doing what you know is right than living with regret over what you failed to do.
And hey, if you truly feel that there are others who need you and cannot carry on without you, then by all means, stay as far away from a dangerous situation as possible for their sake, but don't turn around and dishonor the dead for their heroism by criticizing their brave decision to intervene on the behalf of others. Surely they left behind a family of their own who will sorely miss them, but perhaps the heroism of their dearly departed helps to ease their pain, and the last thing they would want to see is their sacrifice criticized by random strangers who lacked the gumption to do what he did in the first place, regardless of any potentially fatal mistakes he might have made in the process.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
If you frequent gun forums and participate in discussion threads like this one, daydreaming about self-defense scenarios where you successfully use your carry gun is likely part of your hobby. So you may actually have given this some thought.
Most people, including those who own and carry guns, probably don't. Add to that the stress, absence of any actual training, and the unpredictability of any real shooting situation, and anything can happen.
Mr. Hurley apparently took on a guy with an AR-15 with his handgun and won. That's pretty impressive. It's likely that in the immediate aftermath he wasn't in a mental state that favored smart deliberate action; most people might not be.
Grabbing the big gun that was the threat might seem the obvious thing to do at that moment of high excitement. I wouldn't call it stupid, more an understandable reflex.
Unfortunately, with a deceased police officer on the ground, the responding officer was likely also prone to react reflexively to a guy holding a rifle.
Most people, including those who own and carry guns, probably don't. Add to that the stress, absence of any actual training, and the unpredictability of any real shooting situation, and anything can happen.
Mr. Hurley apparently took on a guy with an AR-15 with his handgun and won. That's pretty impressive. It's likely that in the immediate aftermath he wasn't in a mental state that favored smart deliberate action; most people might not be.
Grabbing the big gun that was the threat might seem the obvious thing to do at that moment of high excitement. I wouldn't call it stupid, more an understandable reflex.
Unfortunately, with a deceased police officer on the ground, the responding officer was likely also prone to react reflexively to a guy holding a rifle.
I agree with the sentiment that our savvy member from flyover country has impressed upon me many times and that is 'I am no good to my family dead'.
OP
Duly noted. I haven't criticized anyone's actions. He did what he did and paid the price. I may or may not have done the same thing, but I wasn't there, and have no idea what occurred. I'm not your therapist, and an anonymous internet forum is probably not the place to work through your personal doubts . . .
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OP
Really only a valid thought for bombs and things that might be bombs. You've violated that instruction thousands of times since it was issued, and probably several times this weekend. I'm guessing the Army ordered you to pick up a bunch of stuff you didn't put down. I know I have, and I haven't been blown up or shot . . .
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As sad as the outcome was it could have been far worse. This is an area with very narrow streets that are designed to impede traffic and encourage pedestrians. There are lots of little shops,cafes,etc and there are usually lots of people around. The original shooter was another nut "going for it"
(I live 10 minutes from there and frequent several of the businesses)
The slaughter in Boulder a few months ago was 2 blocks from my daughters former high school and I know those stores quite well too.
Yikes.
(I live 10 minutes from there and frequent several of the businesses)
The slaughter in Boulder a few months ago was 2 blocks from my daughters former high school and I know those stores quite well too.
Yikes.
Only pieces of the event video are available. Perp runs up behind PO, musta said something, cop turns and is DRT. Perp runs back to pickup and EXCHANGES shotgun for AR. Guy takes him out with CC pistol. If he didn't act, perp already had "change of plan" retrieving AR. He had already killed one cop, wanted more that would surely come, and couldn't give 2 ***** about anybody in the line of fire. Tragic, top to bottom. Joe
Jon651
Member
I certainly am NOT judging you for your choice of words. This story has provoked some deep thought and while tragic I think there are lessons to be learned - the chief one is everyone needs to also consider what to do NEXT.
As for myself, I'm going to incorporate what happened here into my personal pre-planning. The video I linked to last year from Massad Ayoob about what to do during a demonstration/riot (Defending Against Mob Violence - Critical Mas(s) Ep. 04 with Massad Ayoob - YouTube) shows us that we need to continually reevaluate what each of us believes is "the right thing to do" in an ever-changing society.
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I got my first drivers license at the DMV there, still go to
the Army surplus store when we visit relatives.
It's a real target rich environment now that the whole
area has been gentrified. At least 70% of the people
at any given time are buried in their cell phones. In
May when I was there I witnessed 1 pedestrian to
pedestrian collision and a pedestrian walking into a car
stopped at a light. No situational awareness at all and we
were there only about an hour and a half.
Mr. Hurley saved a lot of folks. Should have left the rifle
on the ground.
the Army surplus store when we visit relatives.
It's a real target rich environment now that the whole
area has been gentrified. At least 70% of the people
at any given time are buried in their cell phones. In
May when I was there I witnessed 1 pedestrian to
pedestrian collision and a pedestrian walking into a car
stopped at a light. No situational awareness at all and we
were there only about an hour and a half.
Mr. Hurley saved a lot of folks. Should have left the rifle
on the ground.
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That is one solid fact. I have been in some high emotion situations and once they were over I and others have done some interesting things.
That is the most likely explanation when you think about it.
The last thing you'd expect is that the cops would shoot you after you just took out the Bad Guy. He probably thought that he should move the rifle away from BG but didn't realize how that made him appear to the officers just showing up - here they have one of their own, dead on the street and there's a guy with a gun.
Terrible tragedy all around. God Bless him for jumping in to help. From the BG's note found later, it seems like he may have gone to get the rifle to shoot officers responding to the first shooting. Crazy.
9mmPatriot
Member
Yes there is, but it is all heavily redacted.
Miami_JBT
US Veteran
Blue on Blue happens with uniform and plainclothes cops all the time. Sadly, the same happened here.
Uniformed officers were dispatched with the info of an active shooter with an AR and he's already killed one cop. Officers arrive and see a dead cop and a dead civilian, not knowing that that was the shooter. They see another guy standing over both with an AR.
Tragically what happened, happened.
I had a similar situation in Tallahassee.
Deputy Chris Smith of LCSO was ambushed in my neighborhood. I ran out of my house with a gun trying to respond.
Mind you, I'm in civies with a gun and I'm not a local cop. I'm a plainclothes state agent, so the responding uniformed units from LCSO and TPD don't know who I am. I could have easily been shot myself by them.
The only reason why I didn't get popped is that a block away from me, another off duty cop, a guy from TPD smoke checked the shooter. The locals knew who he was and he was physically closer since his house was closer to the scene than mine.
Uniformed officers were dispatched with the info of an active shooter with an AR and he's already killed one cop. Officers arrive and see a dead cop and a dead civilian, not knowing that that was the shooter. They see another guy standing over both with an AR.
Tragically what happened, happened.
I had a similar situation in Tallahassee.
Deputy Chris Smith of LCSO was ambushed in my neighborhood. I ran out of my house with a gun trying to respond.
Mind you, I'm in civies with a gun and I'm not a local cop. I'm a plainclothes state agent, so the responding uniformed units from LCSO and TPD don't know who I am. I could have easily been shot myself by them.
The only reason why I didn't get popped is that a block away from me, another off duty cop, a guy from TPD smoke checked the shooter. The locals knew who he was and he was physically closer since his house was closer to the scene than mine.
