4.5 grains Unique and Speer LSWCHP.
Your Favorite 38 Spl +P 158 gr lead load
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max503
Member
I never load that hot.
For me it's 11.5 grs of 2400 under a Lyman # 358156 SWC HP with a gas check.
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I've used plenty of HS-6 with a 160 gr. LSWC ( Hensley & Gibbs #51) in the .38 Special cartridge. I've never used 7 grs. and won't. It's probably best for all of us to check with reputable sources (the real experts) rather than Internet experts regarding safe maximum loads.
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DWalt
Member
4 grains of 700-X works for me. MV is usually in the mid-800s. I just loaded 200 rounds this morning.
SuperMan
Member
Full load...equals the original .38-44 load...
Home cast Lyman/Thompson 357156 with 6.0 grains of Unique. Have both the original Lyman mold, a MP Mold that can be used solid, HP and PentaPoint as well as a MP aluminum mold that is a non-gascheck.
Runs in the mid-900s from a 649 2" to 1140 from a 4" Heavy Duty. It is just a little slower than the Outdoorsman load in solid and HP from Buffalo Bore.
For just target shooting and plinking, 4.0 of 700-X with most any 150-160 SWC works great and is cheap...
Bob
ps...as far as the SAAMI limits go...can someone please tell me why a J-frame can be chambered in 9mm at over 30k psi but everyone wets their underwear when someone goes to 26k in a .38 Special in the same gun...what am I missing?
Home cast Lyman/Thompson 357156 with 6.0 grains of Unique. Have both the original Lyman mold, a MP Mold that can be used solid, HP and PentaPoint as well as a MP aluminum mold that is a non-gascheck.
Runs in the mid-900s from a 649 2" to 1140 from a 4" Heavy Duty. It is just a little slower than the Outdoorsman load in solid and HP from Buffalo Bore.
For just target shooting and plinking, 4.0 of 700-X with most any 150-160 SWC works great and is cheap...
Bob
ps...as far as the SAAMI limits go...can someone please tell me why a J-frame can be chambered in 9mm at over 30k psi but everyone wets their underwear when someone goes to 26k in a .38 Special in the same gun...what am I missing?
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Not ever. No need.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
The Hodgdon #26 load manual from 1992 lists the max charge of HS-6 under a 158gr LSWC bullet at 7.3gr for a velocity of 955 fps and 19,200 CUP. My charge of 7.0gr HS-6 is not the max charge and that's from a reputable source.
Additionally, some older Winchester manuals show loads for W540. It's known W540 = HS-6 so when I saw the data listing 7.2gr W540 under a 158gr LSWC being just under the 20,000 PSI SAAMI limits I knew my 7.0gr load to be safe. Another reputable source from before the merge of both companies.
You are correct, you should always verify all data you get from the Internet from people you don't know.
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You make a good point. The old load manuals are great reference sources; guess I have between forty and fifty of them and refer to them regularly. As you well know, much of the information is not available online.
The method of pressure measurement may be considerably more accurate today and less dependent on operator interpretation than it was when #26 was published about thirty years ago; another good reason to be cautious with old data. There is also a suggestion in #26 that the data is not recommended for small frame (presumably including steel) and alloy frame revolvers.
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I still prefer to use recent published data for the .38 Special and everything else as well and make no apology for doing so.
However, your point regarding 9mm vs. .38 Special pressures in a J-frame is worth considering. I don't have the answer, but would speculate on several things. The 9mm has always been loaded to 30K or more. It's always been a smokeless cartridge and I doubt any weak guns have been chambered for the 9mm. Pretty consistent high pressure loadings for more than a hundred years.
The .38 Special started off as a low-pressure black powder cartridge. Smokeless load pressures were greater but probably not by a great deal. Many of the older revolvers weren't particularly strong ones and then one has to consider the cheap Spanish revolvers and other junkers that have been made for the .38 Special.
To complicate matters, the high-pressure factory .38 Special loadings beginning in the 1930s would tend to negate any argument about "weak" revolvers. Many commercial loads and handloads have, in recent decades, been toned down somewhat over the hotter loads of years past.
Better and more accurate ways of measuring pressure have become available, but .38 Special pressures have been all over the place in more than a hundred years. Whether or not that accounts in any way for present day SAAMI specs, I don't know.
It's also of some importance to note that prior to "+P", many shooters reasoned that if a barrel was marked .38 Special and ammo was marked .38 Special, the two were made for each other regardless of other considerations. That may not have been the best way to look at it, but you didn't hear about anyone blowing up guns because they fired the 110 Norma jacketed hollowpoint (the hottest of the hot .38s) in a Chief Special.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
You also make good points but current data is not always lower because of better testing methods.
Right now on the Hodgdon Load Data Site they list
In the .38 Special data with a 158gr LSWC bullet they say the max is 6.3gr HS-6 with pressures of 16,200 CUP.
In the .357 Magnum data with a 158gr LSWC bullet they say the max is 7.0gr of HS-6 with pressures of 15,500 CUP.
I find those numbers to be strange. The .357 Magnum case is only slightly longer yet .7gr more powder generated less pressure than the .38 Special. That is hard to believe. Also, only 15,500 CUP in a .357 Magnum round, not hardly a Magnum, is it?
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Yes; looks like they didn't complete their work.
I only load 11, guess I'm just not adventurous.......
They claimed the electronic pressure numbers were different so it had to be downgraded to 20,000 but then they made a mistake in the SAAMI info and said that both were equal at 20,000 psi. It is the one set of data where they both agree. Just one more big lie. They forget what they told and tell you that you have a bad memory.........
bmcgilvray
Member
I'm just gonna resurrect an old thread I stuck up on this topic. Post number 42 contains results of +P handloading efforts.
Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests
I used to enjoy sampling all the powders and combinations, sitting at the reloading bench imagining the benefits as I assembled new loads, but came to the realization years ago that it was simpler and more efficient to stick with what I know will work well. 5.4 grains of Unique behind a 158 grain cast lead SWC works well to provide starch in .38 Special loads. There's not much one could reasonably ask of a .38 Special revolver that it won't handle.
Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests
I used to enjoy sampling all the powders and combinations, sitting at the reloading bench imagining the benefits as I assembled new loads, but came to the realization years ago that it was simpler and more efficient to stick with what I know will work well. 5.4 grains of Unique behind a 158 grain cast lead SWC works well to provide starch in .38 Special loads. There's not much one could reasonably ask of a .38 Special revolver that it won't handle.
SuperMan
Member
My guess would be that any guns, but some of the imported cheap garbage guns, made after WWII are safe to use with much heavier loads than the SAAMI specs indicate. They are simply erring on the side of caution, as in liability, for those who insist in putting +P rounds in a 1900s vintage gun.
It is also doubtful that a gun is gun is going to "blow up" due to hot loads...it is simply going to rattle faster.
My 649 is also fitted with a second cylinder that TK Custom modified to take 9mm and .38 Super via moon clips.. They both run ammo way over 30k psi and the rounds don't seem to be doing anything negative to the gun...
.38 Super is what snubbies should be chambered for...they don't back out of the cylinder like a tapered 9mm case does. I've had four snubbies in 9mm, two LCRs, one 940 and the 649 and everyone locked up tight with +P ammo...zero issues with with Super.
Bob
It is also doubtful that a gun is gun is going to "blow up" due to hot loads...it is simply going to rattle faster.
My 649 is also fitted with a second cylinder that TK Custom modified to take 9mm and .38 Super via moon clips.. They both run ammo way over 30k psi and the rounds don't seem to be doing anything negative to the gun...
.38 Super is what snubbies should be chambered for...they don't back out of the cylinder like a tapered 9mm case does. I've had four snubbies in 9mm, two LCRs, one 940 and the 649 and everyone locked up tight with +P ammo...zero issues with with Super.
Bob
gwpercle
Member
My Pet 38 Special +P Load is :
one of the following bullets : cast of clip on wheel weights - soft lead 50/50 (bhn 8) and sized .357" or .358".
Lyman # 358477 - 150 grs. SWC
Lyman # 358156 - 155 grs. SWC
Lyman # 358432 - 160 grs. WC *
*This bullet is my Pet Bullet in this Pet Load , the other two will do OK , Hollow Point bullet is at your option . I'm not a big fan of casting hollow points but discovered NOE Bullet Molds has made it much easier with their moulds . www.noebulletmolds.com check them out.
Load any of these bullets over 5.2 grs. Unique powder .
That's it !
Gary
one of the following bullets : cast of clip on wheel weights - soft lead 50/50 (bhn 8) and sized .357" or .358".
Lyman # 358477 - 150 grs. SWC
Lyman # 358156 - 155 grs. SWC
Lyman # 358432 - 160 grs. WC *
*This bullet is my Pet Bullet in this Pet Load , the other two will do OK , Hollow Point bullet is at your option . I'm not a big fan of casting hollow points but discovered NOE Bullet Molds has made it much easier with their moulds . www.noebulletmolds.com check them out.
Load any of these bullets over 5.2 grs. Unique powder .
That's it !
Gary
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Old Corp
Member
I started loading .38's for my first revolver, a Ruger Security Six .357 4" in the mid-70's.
First started with about the only bulk lead bullets available at the time - the soft swaged Speer and Hornady 158 gr LSWC's and around 4.5 gr. Unique.
Not too long after, began casting bullets and my mentor gave me a Lyman 358156GC mold and I began making and lube/sizing them in profusion. Usually wheelweights with a little linotype thrown in.
Using that bullet, I settled on 5.5 gr Unique. Accurate, clean (for Unique) and actually a nice middle-of-the-road non-magnum round for my revolver of which I was so proud.
Although I don't cast anymore (too easy to 'click' and buy quality cast bullets), I still use that load with various commercial cast 158 gr LSWC's in steel K frames, N frames (a .38 HD and several .357's) and another Ruger S6.
Pretty sure it's over any published loads out there now, but I've never had the first issue with it.
It's a little snappy in the steel J frames. I usually practice with a plenitude of commercial 130 gr range ammo with those.
First started with about the only bulk lead bullets available at the time - the soft swaged Speer and Hornady 158 gr LSWC's and around 4.5 gr. Unique.
Not too long after, began casting bullets and my mentor gave me a Lyman 358156GC mold and I began making and lube/sizing them in profusion. Usually wheelweights with a little linotype thrown in.
Using that bullet, I settled on 5.5 gr Unique. Accurate, clean (for Unique) and actually a nice middle-of-the-road non-magnum round for my revolver of which I was so proud.
Although I don't cast anymore (too easy to 'click' and buy quality cast bullets), I still use that load with various commercial cast 158 gr LSWC's in steel K frames, N frames (a .38 HD and several .357's) and another Ruger S6.
Pretty sure it's over any published loads out there now, but I've never had the first issue with it.
It's a little snappy in the steel J frames. I usually practice with a plenitude of commercial 130 gr range ammo with those.
crstrode
Member
Probably not too old yet. Just emptied a 1992 can of 231. Works just fine and cannot tell the difference compared to a batch made with new stuff.
The old can had a price tag of $7.99 . . .
