101Voodoo
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Universal 5.1, with any 158gr lead bullet.
Your Favorite 38 Spl +P 158 gr lead load
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mike campbell
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I don't do much +P, tending more towards 38spl and 357mag loads. Recently wringing out a nice 1953 Colt Officers Model with 4 cast bullets of 156-162 grains and 7 powders (WST,AA2,CFE,Bullseye,452AA,AA5 & 231) and the composite accuracy winner is AA5. My expectation is for 5 shots in 1" @ 50 feet.
From the 6" barrel, 5.6 grains AA5 averages ~850 fps and 5.8 grains gives ~900 fps. The standard deviations are a tad better at 900. The AA5 placed first and second with 158's and 125's, whereas WST was the opposite.
From the 6" barrel, 5.6 grains AA5 averages ~850 fps and 5.8 grains gives ~900 fps. The standard deviations are a tad better at 900. The AA5 placed first and second with 158's and 125's, whereas WST was the opposite.
OP
38SPL HV
Member
Thank you, nice information all
drifterdon
Member
I was working on my FBI replica load today but didn't venture into the +P area although it looks like I will have to.
I am up to 6.0 grains of HS-6 with a Lee C358158 SWC gas checked. My average velocity was 819 fps. I am trying to get to 906-910 which is what I get with the Buffalo Bore Non +P 158 grain hollow point SWC. I have Power Pistol, and AA#5 to try also.
I am up to 6.0 grains of HS-6 with a Lee C358158 SWC gas checked. My average velocity was 819 fps. I am trying to get to 906-910 which is what I get with the Buffalo Bore Non +P 158 grain hollow point SWC. I have Power Pistol, and AA#5 to try also.
Erich
Member
Tennessee Valley Bullets 158-gr hardcast LSWC, any case, 6.0 grains of Power Pistol, CCI standard SPP.
OP
38SPL HV
Member
Thank you Erich, what velocities are you obtaining with 6.0 grs PP? I too used this loading in the past in my N Frame and liked it.
Erich
Member
Depends on the gun and the conditions and the way you hold your tongue when you shoot, of course, but a representative sampling one afternoon at the Albuquerque City Range (5950'>sea level, c. 40°F) would be:
1 7/8" Model 38-2 M 855.3 fps/ES 11.48/SD 5.09 (257 fpe)
3" Model 36-1 950.6/41.86/20.07 (317 fpe)
4" Model 15 956.0/40.75/14.93 (321 fpe)
6" Model 14 1030/22.39/10.14 (372 fpe)
Basically a little more "oomph" than the old FBI Load. Honestly, it could be the magic lube Jessie puts on his bullets.
I'd note you can get almost identical results from Unique using data that was published and acceptable (not even max!) until the Great Neutering of the .38 Special, but obviously the pressures are a little bit higher with the Unique loading than with the even-our-Twenty-First-Century-lawyers-are-okay-with-it factory-published Power Pistol data I used and am willing to discuss on an open forum.
Now, I've said this before: the old counterleaners who recommended Unique to a young college student who could only afford one can of powder to use with his Lee Loader, they did me right - and God bless them, because they set me on a path that's led to a rewarding lifelong hobby. But, if I were the counterleaner these days, I'd probably point the youngster toward Power Pistol . . . and, in fact, this is where I directed my younger brother when he asked me about it a few years back. Only downside I've seen is it's flashier.
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I, too like Archangelcd have settled on HS-6 for my 38 +p loads. I lack his experience, so I'm a little more conservative with my powder charge. Oddly, though, I've found CFE Pistol to work at higher .357 mag levels quite well.
OP
38SPL HV
Member
Thank you Erich for the detailed information. That PP really "barks" at 6.0grs, but it's a real good load.
drifterdon
Member
I purchased some CFE Pistol yesterday to try and find a replacement for Unique which is apparently a thing of the past at least locally. Anyways, 5.0 grains behind a Lee C358158 and Federal 100 primer is a great shooting and accurate load. It shoots to the same point of impact as the Buffalo Bore 158 SWC-HP Non +P in my M60. I think I have a new favorite. Now I need to see how it works for .44 plinking loads.
Classic29
Member
Qc Pistolero
Member
My 158gr RN RCBS mould drops WW bullets at 160gr (weight after sized and lubed).Stuffing 5.4gr Unique in a .38 case from an old Lyman manual(must say that my supply of Unique powder dates quite a while back;none of the newer stuff they now have)gives me an accurate load(20yds standing no rest all in a 4''black).I don't own a chrono(yet)but according to Lyman's,it is close to 1000FPS.Gotta love a round that performs like that!I shoot these only in .357Mag guns though!Safety first.
Anyone use Universal Clays?
38 SPL 158 grain load
Speer 158 gr. LSWCHP or cast 158 gr. LSWC, 5.2 gr. Unique. Seems to be a popular combination. Has worked for me for 40 years.
Speer 158 gr. LSWCHP or cast 158 gr. LSWC, 5.2 gr. Unique. Seems to be a popular combination. Has worked for me for 40 years.
Universal Clays is close to Unique in its use.
It did not impress me in my pistol, revolver and 12 Ga. trap loads in order for me to toss away my Unique powder.
It might have metered better but that's about all it did better than the other powder and in starting loads in the 12 Ga. was very dirty.
I will give out one load that I used in a 6" 6868 S&W with a lead SWC 158 gr bullet for target use that was accurate for me.
Universal... 4.4 gr...... at..... 847fps.
Good loading.
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Thanks Ed.
Appreciate you helpin' me out.
Appreciate you helpin' me out.
OP
38SPL HV
Member
I found that Speer's max +P loading 5.0 grs Universal and 158 gr SWC gave a nice factory velocity equivalent +P for use in my SP101...pretty similar to 5.0 grs Unique. Work up from starting +P data first.
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Model 15-4ever
Member
HS-6 works wonders in .38 Special +P. But current published loading data is so watered down that it stops well short of the pressure limit.
Speer Number 8 (aka "The Atomic Manual") lists the starting load as 7.0 grains of HS-6 under 158 grain lead bullet. That load exceeds the lame maximum charge on current Hodgdon website. The Speer Number 8 maximum was 8.0 grains... I've tried it and it's full power no doubt.
There are those who go into a catatonic trance and scream when Speer Number 8 is mentioned. Fine. Speer Number 10, published in 1979 (back when +P actually meant something) writing in the .38 Special section, states "+P working pressure is 22,400 cup."
SAAMI later watered down the .38 Special +P specification. In its 2015 publication, "American National Standard Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Pistol and Revolver Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers", the pressure spec for .38 Special +P was lowered to 20,000 CUP. The nominal velocity for a 158 grain bullet is listed as 880 fps from a 4" vented test barrel.
Based on the performance of some historical hi-speed factory loadings (158 grain bullet at ~1090 fps), the "new" .38 Special +P level is fairly weak sauce.
Take a look at the current Hodgdon HS-6 data for .38 Special with 158 grain cast bullet, and it stops at 16,200 CUP. Having tried Hodgdon's low pressure .38 Special HS-6 loads, the results are dismal - unburnt powder, low velocities, mediocre accuracy. It's obvious how watered down the Hodgdon HS-6 data is in .38 Special. No data is provided for +P loads with a 158 grain lead bullet. Why?
Oddly enough, Hodgdon decided to provide 158 grain cast bullet data for .357 Magnum: 7.0 grains of HS-6 gives only 15,500 CUP. Hmmmm, something fishy is going on here...
A little bit of analysis indicates that whether you intend to stay within the current 20,000 CUP +P limit, or the traditional pre-watered 22,400 CUP limit... you can increase the charge accordingly. Pop a magnum primer in the .38 Special case, and bump up the powder charge to normal levels and you have something really good. My personal HS-6 loads with 160 grain LHP bullets make 985 fps in 4" barrel revolver, and 900 fps in a 2" gun. The loads are very accurate and hit POA in fixed sight revolvers.
Buffalo Bore sells loaded factory ammo at these levels. Their choice of powder is unknown, but obviously the pressure levels are safe.
Note these pressure figures are for copper-crusher CUP, NOT transducer PSI. The numbers are not the same. Hodgdon still lists its 38 Special and 357 Magnum pressure data in CUP... I'm surprised because you are now able to see how weak these loads have become since the SAAMI downgrading. Once pressure figures are expressed in PSI, you have no way of comparing them to older CUP data.
As always, YMMV, and practice safe and prudent loading practices. Inexperienced reloaders should adhere to published data. What is acceptable in your guns is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
Happy trails!
Speer Number 8 (aka "The Atomic Manual") lists the starting load as 7.0 grains of HS-6 under 158 grain lead bullet. That load exceeds the lame maximum charge on current Hodgdon website. The Speer Number 8 maximum was 8.0 grains... I've tried it and it's full power no doubt.
There are those who go into a catatonic trance and scream when Speer Number 8 is mentioned. Fine. Speer Number 10, published in 1979 (back when +P actually meant something) writing in the .38 Special section, states "+P working pressure is 22,400 cup."
SAAMI later watered down the .38 Special +P specification. In its 2015 publication, "American National Standard Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Pistol and Revolver Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers", the pressure spec for .38 Special +P was lowered to 20,000 CUP. The nominal velocity for a 158 grain bullet is listed as 880 fps from a 4" vented test barrel.
Based on the performance of some historical hi-speed factory loadings (158 grain bullet at ~1090 fps), the "new" .38 Special +P level is fairly weak sauce.
Take a look at the current Hodgdon HS-6 data for .38 Special with 158 grain cast bullet, and it stops at 16,200 CUP. Having tried Hodgdon's low pressure .38 Special HS-6 loads, the results are dismal - unburnt powder, low velocities, mediocre accuracy. It's obvious how watered down the Hodgdon HS-6 data is in .38 Special. No data is provided for +P loads with a 158 grain lead bullet. Why?
Oddly enough, Hodgdon decided to provide 158 grain cast bullet data for .357 Magnum: 7.0 grains of HS-6 gives only 15,500 CUP. Hmmmm, something fishy is going on here...
A little bit of analysis indicates that whether you intend to stay within the current 20,000 CUP +P limit, or the traditional pre-watered 22,400 CUP limit... you can increase the charge accordingly. Pop a magnum primer in the .38 Special case, and bump up the powder charge to normal levels and you have something really good. My personal HS-6 loads with 160 grain LHP bullets make 985 fps in 4" barrel revolver, and 900 fps in a 2" gun. The loads are very accurate and hit POA in fixed sight revolvers.
Buffalo Bore sells loaded factory ammo at these levels. Their choice of powder is unknown, but obviously the pressure levels are safe.
Note these pressure figures are for copper-crusher CUP, NOT transducer PSI. The numbers are not the same. Hodgdon still lists its 38 Special and 357 Magnum pressure data in CUP... I'm surprised because you are now able to see how weak these loads have become since the SAAMI downgrading. Once pressure figures are expressed in PSI, you have no way of comparing them to older CUP data.
As always, YMMV, and practice safe and prudent loading practices. Inexperienced reloaders should adhere to published data. What is acceptable in your guns is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
Happy trails!
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ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
My favorite FBI Load replica is made with a Speer or Hornady 158gr LSWC-HP bullet over 7.0gr HS-6. Its very accurate in my revolves. From everything I've read it is not over pressure but be aware no current manuals list that load.
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