Jesse James Schofield just sold...
- Thread starter outta_ammo
- Start date
That's not even close to correct. Bob Ford murdered Jesse James in April of 1882. The Northfield fight left two of the James Gang dead but Jesse and Frank escaped unharmed. The Youngers were caught but Jesse and Frank James escaped to Missouri.
Knowing that as you do, I would think "wiped out" would be a little bit too strong of a description.
If you know the "Ballad of Jesse James" then you know that Jesse went by the name of Thomas Howard and Frank went by B.J Woodson. They were not as prolific as they had been but Jesse had a new gang, as you note above, probably with little or no help from Frank, and they committed robberies in the late 1870s.
The new gang was not nearly as criminally adept as the old Civil War guerillas like the Youngers and others so they didn't fare well and you all know the history of Bob Ford killing Jesse James.
The Schofields were around in 1870 - you can look that up. The SCSW says 1870 (page 111). Page 113 says that Frank James carried Schofield SN 3444 and 5476. SN 2341 was Cole Younger's and Jesse James owned SN 366, and SN 273 might have been Bob Ford's (page 113) - my speculation on the Ford gun.
The gun in the auction has a 4 digit serial number so it doesn't agree with the SCSW. Maybe Jim Supica needs to opine.
I thought that Frank James used Remington Revolvers ?
Wyatt Burp
Member
This .44-40 used by Garrett to kill BTK actually has a ton of provenance. BTK’s buddy Billy Wilson had the Colt and also a new Winchester .44 SRC. When captured at Stinking Springs, Garrett kept these guns. he later killed the kid with the Colt. Then after that he loaned it to be on display at the Cony Island saloon in El Paso. After Garrett was killed, his wife sued to get the gun back and won. Serial number documented in the lawsuit. The Winchester is in this auction, too.
Î noticed in the auction some guns are said to be “attributed to…” a certain person. Like the questionable Kid Curry Colt .45. Other guns flat out say the guns belonged to someone.
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There's is a Smith attributed to Elvis on Guns International IIRC it's $17K.
James Gang Guns
The only guns that have excellent provenance regarding the first James Gang guns are Frank James Remington New Model and Jesse James Colt Single Action Army in 45 cal.
There was also a gun dropped by a gang member inside the bank in Northfield, Mn. (A Colt 38 conversion) Those guns also make clear sense at that time regarding cartridge availability since the Single Action Army was clearly available and also the Remington New model so rounds would be plentiful in larger towns with a rail yard to supply local shops with ammo.
There is also testimony from Dick Liddil aka Dick Liddell, aka Dick little, etc, Real name: (James Andrew Liddil) in the Frank James trial in which he states that the second gang primarily used Smith and Wesson 44's and Colt 45's. He also stated that they understood that no less than a 44 would "do the job".
He also identified one early gang member as using a Colt 36 Navy Cap and Ball as using an "Old Fashioned" handgun....That is documented in the Frank James trial.
In fact a lot of the 2nd gang robberies are documented in that trial. All documented in Court records....That's the kind of research I like....No yarns allowed!
Murph
The only guns that have excellent provenance regarding the first James Gang guns are Frank James Remington New Model and Jesse James Colt Single Action Army in 45 cal.
There was also a gun dropped by a gang member inside the bank in Northfield, Mn. (A Colt 38 conversion) Those guns also make clear sense at that time regarding cartridge availability since the Single Action Army was clearly available and also the Remington New model so rounds would be plentiful in larger towns with a rail yard to supply local shops with ammo.
There is also testimony from Dick Liddil aka Dick Liddell, aka Dick little, etc, Real name: (James Andrew Liddil) in the Frank James trial in which he states that the second gang primarily used Smith and Wesson 44's and Colt 45's. He also stated that they understood that no less than a 44 would "do the job".
He also identified one early gang member as using a Colt 36 Navy Cap and Ball as using an "Old Fashioned" handgun....That is documented in the Frank James trial.
In fact a lot of the 2nd gang robberies are documented in that trial. All documented in Court records....That's the kind of research I like....No yarns allowed!
Murph
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THE PILGRIM
Member
Churchill reportedly used a Mauser Broomhandle down in South Africa.
Some of those folks probably took it when he was captured.
Some of those folks probably took it when he was captured.
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Gene L
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I saw JJ's Schofield on a TV show recently. The name Jesse James was written inside the grips. This signature was examined by a signature expert who declared it to be authentic. Also, IIRC, there was blood stains on the inside of the grips. Whether this is true or not, I can't say, but there exists some provenance.
Interesting discussion.
A number of years back, I did an article for the Blue Book on how I evaluate historically attributed guns. You can find it here:
NRA Museums:
I'll also be talking about this subject at the S&W Collectors Association Annual Symposium in Tulsa, including discussing both a Jesse Schofield that I find plausible, and a New Mod. #3 from Jesse's mom Zerelda that I'm pretty sure Jesse never saw.
The serial numbers for James associated Schofields in SCSW are ones that have been reported. We didn't research their provenance in depth, and it's not meant to be comprehensive. There do seem to be an unusual number of Schofields associated with the gang. One bit of scuttlebutt that was circulating a few years ago was speculation that the gang had stolen a case of gov't Schofields in a Tennessee train robbery (post Northfield), but I don't if that's true or not.
A number of years back, I did an article for the Blue Book on how I evaluate historically attributed guns. You can find it here:
NRA Museums:
I'll also be talking about this subject at the S&W Collectors Association Annual Symposium in Tulsa, including discussing both a Jesse Schofield that I find plausible, and a New Mod. #3 from Jesse's mom Zerelda that I'm pretty sure Jesse never saw.
The serial numbers for James associated Schofields in SCSW are ones that have been reported. We didn't research their provenance in depth, and it's not meant to be comprehensive. There do seem to be an unusual number of Schofields associated with the gang. One bit of scuttlebutt that was circulating a few years ago was speculation that the gang had stolen a case of gov't Schofields in a Tennessee train robbery (post Northfield), but I don't if that's true or not.
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James Boy's Research
The only common denominator is conflicting information that you can find from day 1...Day 1 being the murder of Jesse James by Robert Ford.
Even the gun that Robert Ford apparently used is questioned by researchers. See photo 1.
This New Model 3 in 44 Russian serial number 3766 has been questioned since the first historical record from the Baltimore Herald circa 1904 that claims Bob Ford gave this gun to the son of St. Joe sheriff C.F. Craig.
There is also a claim that the marking on the gun was factory ordered at a later date...Seems to me that the factory would have a record of that special request?
However, the only real court records state that Bob Ford was actually convicted of the James murder and sentenced to hang! The only reason he didn't hang was due to the Governor stepping in and pardoning him as part of his agreement to "eliminate" the James Gang as a number one priority.
There is a much earlier documented "sworn statement" from Bob Ford in which he stated that he killed Jesse James with a Colt 45. Backed up by an article in the St. Joseph Daily Gazette on April 5, 1882. Two days after the murder....I tend to believe statements made "at the time of the event" over any other found years later.
To be fair though the Daily Gazette does actually state that the murder weapon was "either" a .44 caliber Smith & Wesson or a .45 caliber Colt silver mounted with Pearl grips presented by the dead man to the slayer only a few days prior.
There are court records that I have personally researched in Santa Fe, New Mexico that also clearly records Bob Fords testimony in court that he carried a 45 Colt. Same with his buddy, Dick Liddell, aka Dick little,etc.
All of my research that goes back to the Civil War when the early gang members rode with Quantrill and Bloody Bill? I found not one piece of reliable, believable, sustainable, evidence that suggests the use of the Schofield revolver by any of the gang members.
Again, the first gang was wiped out in 1876 so in my researched opinion only the 2nd gang "could have" used a Schofield revolver. I'd love to prove it but I've seen zero evidence.
Also, just one comment on the Bloody grips? Jesse James would not have written his name on the inside of a gun grip in my opinion...The robber(criminal's) ploy is never to admit, never to be identified, never to be seen,(where a mask), and always remain anonymous in both name and origin. Writing your name on a gun grip would be a form of identifying who you are if captured or if the gun was found? Not a good idea for the NUMBER 1 criminal at that time hiding from the law, living with his family under the assumed name Thomas Howard?
Only gang members knew who he was. Everyone else was clueless until his murder.
Murph
The only common denominator is conflicting information that you can find from day 1...Day 1 being the murder of Jesse James by Robert Ford.
Even the gun that Robert Ford apparently used is questioned by researchers. See photo 1.
This New Model 3 in 44 Russian serial number 3766 has been questioned since the first historical record from the Baltimore Herald circa 1904 that claims Bob Ford gave this gun to the son of St. Joe sheriff C.F. Craig.
There is also a claim that the marking on the gun was factory ordered at a later date...Seems to me that the factory would have a record of that special request?
However, the only real court records state that Bob Ford was actually convicted of the James murder and sentenced to hang! The only reason he didn't hang was due to the Governor stepping in and pardoning him as part of his agreement to "eliminate" the James Gang as a number one priority.
There is a much earlier documented "sworn statement" from Bob Ford in which he stated that he killed Jesse James with a Colt 45. Backed up by an article in the St. Joseph Daily Gazette on April 5, 1882. Two days after the murder....I tend to believe statements made "at the time of the event" over any other found years later.
To be fair though the Daily Gazette does actually state that the murder weapon was "either" a .44 caliber Smith & Wesson or a .45 caliber Colt silver mounted with Pearl grips presented by the dead man to the slayer only a few days prior.
There are court records that I have personally researched in Santa Fe, New Mexico that also clearly records Bob Fords testimony in court that he carried a 45 Colt. Same with his buddy, Dick Liddell, aka Dick little,etc.
All of my research that goes back to the Civil War when the early gang members rode with Quantrill and Bloody Bill? I found not one piece of reliable, believable, sustainable, evidence that suggests the use of the Schofield revolver by any of the gang members.
Again, the first gang was wiped out in 1876 so in my researched opinion only the 2nd gang "could have" used a Schofield revolver. I'd love to prove it but I've seen zero evidence.
Also, just one comment on the Bloody grips? Jesse James would not have written his name on the inside of a gun grip in my opinion...The robber(criminal's) ploy is never to admit, never to be identified, never to be seen,(where a mask), and always remain anonymous in both name and origin. Writing your name on a gun grip would be a form of identifying who you are if captured or if the gun was found? Not a good idea for the NUMBER 1 criminal at that time hiding from the law, living with his family under the assumed name Thomas Howard?
Only gang members knew who he was. Everyone else was clueless until his murder.
Murph
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The "Frank James" Schofield Revolver"??
When you actually perform research on various claims regarding the use of the Schofield revolver by members of the James Gang? This is typically what you run into:
Frank James Schofield, serial number 5476
This revolver hung on the wall of "The Stagecoach Museum" in Shakopee, Minnesota as part of a collection that was purchased in 1970. It was accompanied by a signed affidavit that states: "Mr. Ray's grandfather Philip Carroll who actually witnessed the Robbery in Northfield, saw several men run out of the bank and observed a rather tall man drop a revolver as he mounted his horse. The man was later identified as Frank James.
After riding out of town Mr. Carroll ran over and picked up the "Schofield Model 2 revolver" and kept it until 1941 at which point he gave it to his grandson.
This story actually sounds credible? but when the Historical Department was asked? It was determined that the gun was actually shipped by serial number from the factory to the Springfield Armory one month "AFTER" the robbery took place!
I honestly believe that the true origin of the Schofield Revolver's use by the Gang is actually the "Son" of Jesse James. He would ride around in his car and charge people a nickel to see the guns used by the James gang tacked to a wood board. See photo from the early 1920's.
Murph
When you actually perform research on various claims regarding the use of the Schofield revolver by members of the James Gang? This is typically what you run into:
Frank James Schofield, serial number 5476
This revolver hung on the wall of "The Stagecoach Museum" in Shakopee, Minnesota as part of a collection that was purchased in 1970. It was accompanied by a signed affidavit that states: "Mr. Ray's grandfather Philip Carroll who actually witnessed the Robbery in Northfield, saw several men run out of the bank and observed a rather tall man drop a revolver as he mounted his horse. The man was later identified as Frank James.
After riding out of town Mr. Carroll ran over and picked up the "Schofield Model 2 revolver" and kept it until 1941 at which point he gave it to his grandson.
This story actually sounds credible? but when the Historical Department was asked? It was determined that the gun was actually shipped by serial number from the factory to the Springfield Armory one month "AFTER" the robbery took place!
I honestly believe that the true origin of the Schofield Revolver's use by the Gang is actually the "Son" of Jesse James. He would ride around in his car and charge people a nickel to see the guns used by the James gang tacked to a wood board. See photo from the early 1920's.
Murph
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Anyone have more info on the JJ display board?
Somewhere I picked up the concept that this display board was at one time called the "Crittenden Board" and had something to do with Gov. Crittenden of Missouri who put out the reward on the James gang. I've also heard that it was Jesse Jr.'s traveling exhibit.
Can anyone point me toward more info on the background of this old display? I think I know where the Schofield, belt, and holster from this display currently are. Does anyone know of other identifiable surviving artifacts? Thanks - Jim
Somewhere I picked up the concept that this display board was at one time called the "Crittenden Board" and had something to do with Gov. Crittenden of Missouri who put out the reward on the James gang. I've also heard that it was Jesse Jr.'s traveling exhibit.
Can anyone point me toward more info on the background of this old display? I think I know where the Schofield, belt, and holster from this display currently are. Does anyone know of other identifiable surviving artifacts? Thanks - Jim
Sources
Jim,
I have more information on that board but it's at my mountain property. I can't remember all this stuff so I have to look through my piles of paperwork. I do remember that it definitely is a put together by Jesse James son. Jesse jr. and that he did in fact drive around and charge a nickel to see the board in the early 1920's. He also took photo's of the board and sold photo's...That's the reference to the Governor...It's a photo of the board signed by Jesse James Jr....Notice also he claims that "THE PHOTO" is authentic...not the guns in the photo?
Also, some of the guns on the board are actually photo'd and in the library of Congress. The photo's are documented as taken in January of 1921 but the guns that I've seen match what is on the display board. The Hopkins and Allen 44 Army, The Schofield 45 (Jesse's last gun?), and the Winchester rifle. However, the Library of Congress "Clearly" lists them as NOT Confirmed authentic! That part I believe.
NRA Arms Museum Brass Pro Shop in Springfield, Missouri has one of the Jesse James claimed Schofield revolvers. Likely from that display board.
One of two Remington 44 model 1875's that was Frank James turn in guns when he turned himself into the Governor after Jesse's death is displayed in Bianchi's Frontier museum. At least it was.
National Museum of Crime and Punishment had Clarence Hite's Number 3 Russian in 44cal. That's in Pigeon Forge, Tenn.
I have to comment on Cole Younger's "Gift" to State Senator George Wilson...Serial number 13. Claimed to be a Civilian Schofield and given to the Senator by Cole "AFTER" he got out of prison about 1901...I honestly don't see how that has anything to do with the Gang activities. Cole was in prison from 1876-1901...So, maybe he had this minty Schofield in his shoe? I don't know.
All of the Schofields that I have researched so far have been a dead end. Nothing proven. Not even close.
An early error can be seen in a News Paper article after the Jesse James Murder in which they list the guns taken as a Colt 45 and a Smith and Wesson 45 but in my opinion that was an error. Accounts that were actually documented by law enforcement, etc list the guns as a Smith & Wesson 44 and Colt 45 backed up by the Sheriff's written notes, Bob Fords "sworn statement" that also lists the serial number of the Colt 45 by the way, and "early" news paper accounts within a day or two of the murder. Those I tend to believe more than any other account that tend to get embellished and distorted soon there after.
I've found zero early references to a 45 Schofield other than the error made by newspapers that in my opinion were simply mis-identifying the caliber since all early Smith & Wesson's were not caliber stamped. The Colts actually are on the trigger guard bow. Small print but it's there.
I firmly believe that the gang used 44 Smith & Wesson Model 3's....and several have been documented and are actually listed in Court records that I have read but never a 45 Smith & Wesson.
Add to the fact that Jesse James Jr. was driving around with a put together wood board charging a nickel a view some years later with a Schofield revolver on the board? There you have it...Total distortion. That is the earliest reference to the Schofield revolver that I am aware of; Circa 1921.
I'm not saying that a Schofield wasn't part of the gang's tools....I just can't prove it.
Murph
Jim,
I have more information on that board but it's at my mountain property. I can't remember all this stuff so I have to look through my piles of paperwork. I do remember that it definitely is a put together by Jesse James son. Jesse jr. and that he did in fact drive around and charge a nickel to see the board in the early 1920's. He also took photo's of the board and sold photo's...That's the reference to the Governor...It's a photo of the board signed by Jesse James Jr....Notice also he claims that "THE PHOTO" is authentic...not the guns in the photo?
Also, some of the guns on the board are actually photo'd and in the library of Congress. The photo's are documented as taken in January of 1921 but the guns that I've seen match what is on the display board. The Hopkins and Allen 44 Army, The Schofield 45 (Jesse's last gun?), and the Winchester rifle. However, the Library of Congress "Clearly" lists them as NOT Confirmed authentic! That part I believe.
NRA Arms Museum Brass Pro Shop in Springfield, Missouri has one of the Jesse James claimed Schofield revolvers. Likely from that display board.
One of two Remington 44 model 1875's that was Frank James turn in guns when he turned himself into the Governor after Jesse's death is displayed in Bianchi's Frontier museum. At least it was.
National Museum of Crime and Punishment had Clarence Hite's Number 3 Russian in 44cal. That's in Pigeon Forge, Tenn.
I have to comment on Cole Younger's "Gift" to State Senator George Wilson...Serial number 13. Claimed to be a Civilian Schofield and given to the Senator by Cole "AFTER" he got out of prison about 1901...I honestly don't see how that has anything to do with the Gang activities. Cole was in prison from 1876-1901...So, maybe he had this minty Schofield in his shoe? I don't know.
All of the Schofields that I have researched so far have been a dead end. Nothing proven. Not even close.
An early error can be seen in a News Paper article after the Jesse James Murder in which they list the guns taken as a Colt 45 and a Smith and Wesson 45 but in my opinion that was an error. Accounts that were actually documented by law enforcement, etc list the guns as a Smith & Wesson 44 and Colt 45 backed up by the Sheriff's written notes, Bob Fords "sworn statement" that also lists the serial number of the Colt 45 by the way, and "early" news paper accounts within a day or two of the murder. Those I tend to believe more than any other account that tend to get embellished and distorted soon there after.
I've found zero early references to a 45 Schofield other than the error made by newspapers that in my opinion were simply mis-identifying the caliber since all early Smith & Wesson's were not caliber stamped. The Colts actually are on the trigger guard bow. Small print but it's there.
I firmly believe that the gang used 44 Smith & Wesson Model 3's....and several have been documented and are actually listed in Court records that I have read but never a 45 Smith & Wesson.
Add to the fact that Jesse James Jr. was driving around with a put together wood board charging a nickel a view some years later with a Schofield revolver on the board? There you have it...Total distortion. That is the earliest reference to the Schofield revolver that I am aware of; Circa 1921.
I'm not saying that a Schofield wasn't part of the gang's tools....I just can't prove it.
Murph
Attachments
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I'm just delighted that Jim Supica dropped in! That's excellent! 
FYI, this is not entirely true:
It depends on the document itself. While the notary identifies the person there is a lot of value to a notarization on an affidavit which reflects that the affiant acknowledged the truth of the matter asserted. That kind of affidavit is admissible in a court of law.
On a parallel note, I read somewhere once that Jesse's mother sold stones from his grave and when she needed more she obtained them and dumped them on the grave so she could sell them. So suggesting that she did that with "his guns" is not as fanciful as it might appear to be.
FYI, this is not entirely true:
It depends on the document itself. While the notary identifies the person there is a lot of value to a notarization on an affidavit which reflects that the affiant acknowledged the truth of the matter asserted. That kind of affidavit is admissible in a court of law.
On a parallel note, I read somewhere once that Jesse's mother sold stones from his grave and when she needed more she obtained them and dumped them on the grave so she could sell them. So suggesting that she did that with "his guns" is not as fanciful as it might appear to be.
Fake Jesse James guns "By his Mother"!!
It's not speculative, it's a well known fact that Jesse James mother sold FAKE Jesse James guns. See Photo from the NRA website. ( Well known in that county as Zerelda's guns) Pure fakes. but she would give you a receipt for it! They are suppose to be worth a lot of money now...
I suppose that's why I'm very skeptical about the Schofield being part of the James Gang tools without documented proof.
I'm sure that without his father alive to mentor Jesse Jr....? That he relied on his Grandmother for advice? That's how the board turned up with The James Boys guns? tacked on it? I'm not a believer. Maybe Zerelda authenticated them as well?
Murph
It's not speculative, it's a well known fact that Jesse James mother sold FAKE Jesse James guns. See Photo from the NRA website. ( Well known in that county as Zerelda's guns) Pure fakes. but she would give you a receipt for it! They are suppose to be worth a lot of money now...
I suppose that's why I'm very skeptical about the Schofield being part of the James Gang tools without documented proof.
I'm sure that without his father alive to mentor Jesse Jr....? That he relied on his Grandmother for advice? That's how the board turned up with The James Boys guns? tacked on it? I'm not a believer. Maybe Zerelda authenticated them as well?
Murph
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I would think that a Zerelda authenticated revolver would be worth a small premium, not because of the association with Jesse James, because there is none, but just because the story of her selling revolvers to the general public as being Jesse’s is so legendary.
Merwin & Hulbert is Bogus!
I wish I had my notes but I just remembered something about that display board that I determined to be totally Wrong!
The James Boys second gang was basically done with the Murder of Wood Hite by Dick Liddell. Wood Hite being Jesse and Frank James Cousin. Dick turned himself in for a deal with the law after the murder on Dec 7,1881. So after that murder the gang was basically done.
When we look closely at that Jesse James Jr authentic display board ( two different photos?) you have to justify “ALL” of those guns being Pre-1882! At the very latest!
The problem as I now recall is the 44 WCF Hopkins & Allen or possibly a Merwin and Hulbert long barrel Army but the last photo is from the library of Congress taken in 1921. It’s definitely the same gun that’s on the display board as being part of the James Gang Guns?
That gun is later than 1881. Likely later than 1882! We’d have to see the barrel address but the last two patents are 1882 & 1883 for that variation which would date that gun Well beyond the death of Jesse James! Game over!
This is proof positive in my mind that the board is BS! And now questions ALL of the guns on that board!
Murph
I wish I had my notes but I just remembered something about that display board that I determined to be totally Wrong!
The James Boys second gang was basically done with the Murder of Wood Hite by Dick Liddell. Wood Hite being Jesse and Frank James Cousin. Dick turned himself in for a deal with the law after the murder on Dec 7,1881. So after that murder the gang was basically done.
When we look closely at that Jesse James Jr authentic display board ( two different photos?) you have to justify “ALL” of those guns being Pre-1882! At the very latest!
The problem as I now recall is the 44 WCF Hopkins & Allen or possibly a Merwin and Hulbert long barrel Army but the last photo is from the library of Congress taken in 1921. It’s definitely the same gun that’s on the display board as being part of the James Gang Guns?
That gun is later than 1881. Likely later than 1882! We’d have to see the barrel address but the last two patents are 1882 & 1883 for that variation which would date that gun Well beyond the death of Jesse James! Game over!
This is proof positive in my mind that the board is BS! And now questions ALL of the guns on that board!
Murph
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Patent improvement Sept. 1882
Here is the actual patent dated September, 1882. 5 months after Jesse James was murdered! That would be the earliest. Likely this gun is many years later since they were manufactured until 1892!
Murph
Here is the actual patent dated September, 1882. 5 months after Jesse James was murdered! That would be the earliest. Likely this gun is many years later since they were manufactured until 1892!
Murph
Attachments
To part with $6m for ANY gun I would need three tons of dementia.
Pocket Army
iby,
Very nice Pocket Army...I have a few in my collection also...Very heavy guns! I sure wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that grip knuckler!
I won't get into Patent study. It's boring for most. I will say that Hopkins & Allen was nothing like Smith & Wesson with Patent stamps. I'll leave it at that unless you want more info please PM me if you want the "LONG STORY"?
For the benefit of those who appreciate short posts? I will refer to the Carder book on Hopkins and Allen revolvers?
(Page 45) He states: Four Modifications were developed for the large frame M&H revolvers.
The first issue had scooped flutes and was devoid of the top strap.
Cylinder flutes on the second open top model has flutes extended to the end of the cylinder, a dead end pin was added to the barrel release and the trigger guard was enlarged.
IN 1883 THE 3 MODEL WAS STRENGTENED BY THE ADDITION OF A TOP-STRAP.
The fourth model has ribbed barrels with the front sight pinned to the barrel.
That about covers it.... The gun on the board is NOT a James Gang Gun. It's fake!
If I had my notes with me I could go on and on.
One thing that is common to "OLD FAKES"? They tend to be easy to figure out because the faker 100 years ago didn't have enough information to cover his/her tracks.....Today's information highway spots them easily if you do some research.
Murph
iby,
Very nice Pocket Army...I have a few in my collection also...Very heavy guns! I sure wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that grip knuckler!
I won't get into Patent study. It's boring for most. I will say that Hopkins & Allen was nothing like Smith & Wesson with Patent stamps. I'll leave it at that unless you want more info please PM me if you want the "LONG STORY"?
For the benefit of those who appreciate short posts? I will refer to the Carder book on Hopkins and Allen revolvers?
(Page 45) He states: Four Modifications were developed for the large frame M&H revolvers.
The first issue had scooped flutes and was devoid of the top strap.
Cylinder flutes on the second open top model has flutes extended to the end of the cylinder, a dead end pin was added to the barrel release and the trigger guard was enlarged.
IN 1883 THE 3 MODEL WAS STRENGTENED BY THE ADDITION OF A TOP-STRAP.
The fourth model has ribbed barrels with the front sight pinned to the barrel.
That about covers it.... The gun on the board is NOT a James Gang Gun. It's fake!
If I had my notes with me I could go on and on.
One thing that is common to "OLD FAKES"? They tend to be easy to figure out because the faker 100 years ago didn't have enough information to cover his/her tracks.....Today's information highway spots them easily if you do some research.
Murph
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