This is crazy talk! A Model 10-6 ! Maybe an old Ruger RedHawk .357, those were tanks. I would Never risk something like that. Weave all seen pictures of a gun going catastrophic, Ummmm Yikes! My neighbor accidently double charged a Ruger .45 Colt BH with Bullseye; Wow I want no part of that ! That Big Ol' BH was shredded. He was hurt pretty bad, no bystanders were thank god.
Elmer Keith’s .38 special load data
- Thread starter 9245
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Benchrest1
Member
I would never run a hot rod load in a J or K frame gun. An L or N frame I would go for it.
13 grains of 2400 with a 170 grain bullet?
That is a decent .357 loading. If your idea of success is that the gun doesn't blow up that's probably as fer as anybody need go.
That is a decent .357 loading. If your idea of success is that the gun doesn't blow up that's probably as fer as anybody need go.
Neversink n Klapperthal
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back in 1974 , when model 29s were selling for double the list price, I saw a once beautiful nickeled 6 1/2 incher with the top half blown away by an over charge of Bullseye
THE PILGRIM
Member
I saw a Super Blackhawk that had a cylinder so bulged it couldn’t rotate past the Frame.
Elmer’s 38 Loads look like 357 Loads to me.
When I was heavy into reloading , I had 150, 160, and 174 molds , all Elmer’s Pattern.
Used the 150s in 38s, 160 and 174 in 357s.
Never tried to heavy load the 38s.
Did try some in the 357s.
I say get a current reliable loading Manual and follow the recommendations.
Elmer’s 38 Loads look like 357 Loads to me.
When I was heavy into reloading , I had 150, 160, and 174 molds , all Elmer’s Pattern.
Used the 150s in 38s, 160 and 174 in 357s.
Never tried to heavy load the 38s.
Did try some in the 357s.
I say get a current reliable loading Manual and follow the recommendations.
Marshal Tom
Member
Purchase some .38sp 135 gr. Gold Dots for short barrels and call it good rather than risk harming a nice old 10-6.
scattershot
Member
I don’t think Elmer was doing his testing with the K frame. He was using the larger N frame 38/44 Outdoorsman and the like. If you need to hotrod the .38, my suggestion would be to load to +p pressures, and use them sparingly.
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Herky Bird
Member
@9245 Hmm… how come most of your posts you seem very intent on NOT using published safe data for handloading and also are very interested in magnum loads in an old Model 10 revolver. Getting a few books of knowledge is very cheap and accessible. Elmer Keith was using large-frame revolvers (SAA, 38/44 etc.) and not using medium-frame hand-ejectors (M&P, Model 10 etc.)
Paul in Nevada
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You can buy lvl IV ceramic plates from LAPG for $115/ea. You aren't going to shoot through that with a 38 Spcl even if you had solid tungsten bullets. The solution here isn't equipment, it's training. Guys like us generally train to shoot center mass. That's the only place those 10x12" plates cover. Do what LE/MIL does and train to shoot the pelvis or head when the attacker is wearing armor.
STORMINORMAN
Member
My mantra...
38 Special loads in 38 Special brass for 38 Special firearms...
+P loads for +P applications in APPROPRIATE firearms...
357 Magnum loads in 357 Magnum brass for...? You KNOW the rest!
Cheers!
38 Special loads in 38 Special brass for 38 Special firearms...
+P loads for +P applications in APPROPRIATE firearms...
357 Magnum loads in 357 Magnum brass for...? You KNOW the rest!
Cheers!
Or his self , or others!
Or himself, or others!
gwpercle
Member
This is the load Elmer Keith lists in his book "Sixgun Cartridges& Loads" (1936) . It is listed under/as : .38/44 Special and was to be loaded in Remington .38/44 Cases and fired in the S&W .38/44 HD Outdoorsman revolver .
He didn't say it ...but the 38/44 was not to be fired in lighter 38 special revolvers like the Colt Police Positive Special .
I would only fire this load in 357 magnum revolvers !
Interestingly ... Elmer's 357 Magnum load , same bullet w/ maximum charge of 15 grains 2400 ...
... but he reccomends loading 14.5 grs. 2400 !!!
Reading EK's Book on reloading is quite interesting ... you hear a lot about what he said but much is out of context or misquoted ... the book is reprinted at Amazon for about $10.00 and hearing the words straight from his pen is eye opening ... he knew a lot and I would tell anyone interested in reloading to spend the $10, everything he sys about bullet casting , lead/tin mixes , hollow/solid points and a few other things are still relevant ...
Nice read to boot ,
Gary
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I am not against "Hot Roding" a load in a weapon................
as long as the pressure of the load is ment for the size frame used.
There is a large difference between a j, K & L frame revolver, in the amount of pressure that they will take.
I might have been on the ragged edge with my testing but with the use of my chrony...........
only 1, 2 or just 3 loads were fired before I unloaded the weapon and logged
these loads as unfit, for use.
Most of us TRUST the newer loading manuals available to us but................
there are a few loads in some manuals that I will not go near
after working up, so far and thinking....... no way !!
Later.
as long as the pressure of the load is ment for the size frame used.
There is a large difference between a j, K & L frame revolver, in the amount of pressure that they will take.
I might have been on the ragged edge with my testing but with the use of my chrony...........
only 1, 2 or just 3 loads were fired before I unloaded the weapon and logged
these loads as unfit, for use.
Most of us TRUST the newer loading manuals available to us but................
there are a few loads in some manuals that I will not go near
after working up, so far and thinking....... no way !!
Later.
I was told that S&W heat treated there cylinders different from 38's to .357's on the K frame.
Valid point’s, no handgun round is going to touch level 4 plates (maybe .460 S&W or 45/70?), for those, short of carrying something ridiculous you really just have to shoot around the plate, my concern is more the concealable level 3A armor, if they have plates it will be fairly obvious and so I can act accordingly, but not so much with 3A. 3A can be pierced with a hot 9mm copper solid (like an FTM), and certainly .357 magnum (again assuming a light solid copper bullet), maybe even .45 ACP, maybe, (FTM again) but .38 special?
I know, still not the most likely thing, but it’s already unlikely that I will have to fire in anger at all, so if I’m at that point I’m already loosing the odds game so why not for planning purposes assume 3A armor and a bad guy on PCP?
I agree, but my confusion is that there WERE K frame .357 magnums, of which one was a 10-6.
I’ll clarify though, 99.9% of the time I would still be using standard .38 special, the same goes for if I had an actual .357 magnum, IF I develop a hot load to get .357 magnum performance, beyond a few cylinders to verify function and extraction and zero the only time they would be used would be in an actual defensive shoot, or on rare occasions a cylinder or 2 to reacquaint myself with it, this would not be something for normal range use. Ditto if I had a .357 magnum, I would fire a few cylinders to verify function, extraction, and zero, and once in a blue moon just to reacquaint myself with them, and I would have them loaded for carry, but otherwise I would be shooting standard .38 special.
Scharfschuetzer
Member
The 49th Edition of Lyman's loading manual does not list 2400 for use with the 358429 cast bullet in the 38 Special. I've never considered 2400 a good powder in the old 38 Special as it is best loaded with mid speed powders for good performance. As noted by many above, he probably used an N Frame for his loads which would have given him some margin of safety over a K Frame.
In the 357 Magnum with the 170 grain 358429 bullet and 13.5 grains (Elmer's suggested Load) is a Maximum load with a pressure of 41,000 CUP in the same manual. Keep in mind that the pressure of this load in a 38 Special case will be much higher than in the .357 case. If you want to try that in a 38 Special revolver... well let us know how long your revolver lasts.
Even in my youth, during EK's heyday of writing, I considered his advice and writing as suspicious at best.
In the 357 Magnum with the 170 grain 358429 bullet and 13.5 grains (Elmer's suggested Load) is a Maximum load with a pressure of 41,000 CUP in the same manual. Keep in mind that the pressure of this load in a 38 Special case will be much higher than in the .357 case. If you want to try that in a 38 Special revolver... well let us know how long your revolver lasts.
Even in my youth, during EK's heyday of writing, I considered his advice and writing as suspicious at best.
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What is a Remington 38/44 case? Never heard of it. Just asking, not trying to start a fight.
