Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting

[giants1]

LAPD accidentally killed a teenager in a Burlington Coat Factory dreessing room on December 23:

North Hollywood Burlington shooting: Teen was killed in a store after police officer's shot penetrates wall of dressing room, officials say - CNN

Updated article:
'''A horrible scene''' inside Burlington dressing room where LAPD fatally shot girl - Los Angeles Times

LAPD presumes that it was one and only shot from one of the cops. I know that LAPD uses 9mm hollow points and FN 590 MRD-LE pistols. I presume that the the dressing room was made of sheetrock. However, it's unclear whether the round hit the suspect, then hit the victim or directly hit the victim, or whether multiple shots hit the victim.

I have a Glock 17 with 9mm hollow point rounds in a detached house with sheetrock, one adult family member, and stucco walls. Neighbors are on two sides with stucco walls.

I didn't think that a 9mm round would over-penetrate in the LAPD's situation. Thoughts?

 

[sheppard]

One of the reasons the US Army wanted to adopt the 9x19 cartridge back in the 1940s soon after the end of WW2 was the superior penetration ability of the nine compared to the .45 ACP. This was based on testing done in 1946. It didn't happen because the Army had lots of .45s and handguns are low on the totem pole of weapons acquisition.

I suspect that what happened in CA was many shots fired by the police, some of which missed. One of those misses penetrated the wall of the changing room and killed the girl.

 

[rogerwnuss]

Jhp would tend to fill with whatever they went thru and not expand, I believe. They don't behave the same as penetrating soft tissue. Very sad. As a father of four, that story makes my heart hurt ...

 

[Old cop]

I'm wondering if the .38 service ammo we carried (FBI +P) would have done the same thing.

 

[Pisgah]

No caliber or load can be considered safe when it comes to overpenetration. Why? Because if it's too puny to penetrate ANY wall under ALL circumstances, it will not be fit for self-defense use. People often think of "overpenetration" as passing through an individual, then having steam to pass thru a wall as well; but often it's a pure miss. In that case, there can be absolutely no certainty that the round will not penetrate a wall. After all, some "walls" (and likely this one) are nothing but one or two sheets of wallboard -- something a decent BB rifle can penetrate.

So if concern about overpenetration is the prime factor in your self-defense choice, stick to a baseball bat. To me it's akin to folks who worry about protecting their hearing in a self-defense shooting -- I value my hearing, but I will NOT be groping around for my earmuffs in the middle of the night before engaging the invader standing in my bedroom.

 

[Buford57]

The questions raised here all have to be answered before any conclusions can be drawn: was this a round that penetrated the intended target or a miss? What was the composition of the wall?

An even bigger question is whether the handgun was the appropriate tool for ending the attack the officers were called to stop, given the crowded setting. Prepare for State v. Potter 2.0. Among the questions that have to be answered in that microsecond are not only Can I shoot? But also Must I shoot? And What will happen when I shoot? I know this is the S&W forum, not the Taser forum or Monadnock forum or hand to hand combat forum, but sometimes caliber or ammo choice isn't even in the equation.

 

[djohns6]

The questions raised here all have to be answered before any conclusions can be drawn: was this a round that penetrated the intended target or a miss? What was the composition of the wall?

An even bigger question is whether the handgun was the appropriate tool for ending the attack the officers were called to stop, given the crowded setting. Prepare for State v. Potter 2.0. Among the questions that have to be answered in that microsecond are not only Can I shoot? But also Must I shoot? And What will happen when I shoot? I know this is the S&W forum, not the Taser forum or Monadnock forum or hand to hand combat forum, but sometimes caliber or ammo choice isn't even in the equation.

Officers were told that it was a possible shooting . Tasers and PR-24's were probably nowhere on their radar .

 

[WR Moore]

First and foremost, as hinted above, any projectile capable of causing death or serious bodily injury is going to pass through drywall/sheet rock interior partitions like it wasn't there. The only thing I've found that stopped within the wall was a .177 pellet at about 300 f/s. There's virtually no projectile that turns into pixie dust if it misses it's primary target. Ranges inside houses are generally close: practice, practice, practice.

In addition to the radio message about "possible shooting", it's noted in the article that the perpetrator appears to have been carrying a bicycle cable/chain lock. This is a "harmless" apparently non threatening item frequently carried and used as a street weapon. Similar devices were used in medieval times, and far more recently. While not named in the "knives, dirks, daggers, etc" chant of deadly weapons in statute law, it is, in fact a deadly weapon-if used as one. Apparently, it was used in an attack on someone in the store.

As for judging the actions of responding officers, none of us were there. De-escalation may not have been on the actors/perpetrators/subjects hard drive.

 

[Univibe]

Any bullet or shot load that will stop a thug will also penetrate wallboard.

 

[yrunvs]

The article is from CNN. Didn't read.

 

[murphydog]

Not enough details to know what happened. LAPD primarily uses 9 mm but in a variety of platforms but also other calibers.

A tragic situation all around.

 

[AlHunt]

Knowing the backdrop in your own home is different than a law enforcement shooting in a public place. Everybody's home situation is different but a person usually knows what lies beyond in all directions in their own home.

 

[Univibe]

The article is from CNN. Didn't read.

Did it appear on Fox?

 

[max503]

Whatever became of the Glazer Safety Slug? It was basically a copper jacket filled with small shot encased in some type of gel. It was designed to splatter on impact.

Glaser Safety Slug - Wikipedia

 

[Heinz]

The news reports I find are all from the LA sources. The press/TV there have a history of anti-gun, anti-police bias, so it may take some time for all the actual facts to surface.

 

[Univibe]

Whatever became of the Glazer Safety Slug? It was basically a copper jacket filled with small shot encased in some type of gel. It was designed to splatter on impact.

Glaser Safety Slug - Wikipedia

Rounds that penetrate to a vital organ stop bad guys. Rounds that don't penetrate, don't.

 

[WR Moore]

Whatever became of the Glazer Safety Slug? It was basically a copper jacket filled with small shot encased in some type of gel. It was designed to splatter on impact.

Glaser Safety Slug - Wikipedia

It was designed to "splatter" on a hard surface and not ricochet. A close friend discovered it penetrated drywall with ease when they didn't verify unloaded status by sight and feel.

I used it quite a bit at one time to eliminate predators in pastures filled with very expensive critters. I wasn't impressed.

 

[robertrwalsh]

A decent air gun will penetrate thru one layer of sheet rock. It is not like they harden, or even insulate, changing rooms.

 

[Buford57]

Officers were told that it was a possible shooting . Tasers and PR-24's were probably nowhere on their radar .

Constant reevaluation based on observation. Probably not all the facts are known at this time and they certainly haven't been made public.

 

[BB57]

It still goes back to the basic rules of gun safety. In this case knowing your target and what is beyond it.

Know your house and know what is behind various interior and exterior walls. Choose your fields of fire appropriate in advance.

Also consider who is where in your house and make sure spouse, kids, etc know where they are supposed to go in a home invasion. As much as possible it should be low to the floor behind cover when possible. And, knowing where they are supposed to be further dictates your positioning and fields of fire.

You then call 911, keep the line open and position yourself according to your pre arranged fields of fire and assess and if needed shoot the threat when it appears in that field of fire.

—-

In short, assessment and pre planning are far more important than caliber selection.