Just hopped on Flightradar24. We have B-52s on station in Poland right now. Not to mention F-16s in Romania and large numbers of tankers aloft. We're not trying to hide them at all.
The Russians have gone in
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Alton
Member
UN is a joke
Ukraine should of joined NATO when Poland did
President Clinton should not of stiff armed Ukraine into getting rid of their nuclear weapons
Now it is time for NATO countries to build up their own military force and weapons, and stop relying on the US.
No matter how angry we are about this, not one American life should be lost to protect a country that would not protect itself.
I read a report this morning that even though there are 40+ million Ukraine people, they only have 1.3 million guns between them as private citizens.
Ukraine should of joined NATO when Poland did
President Clinton should not of stiff armed Ukraine into getting rid of their nuclear weapons
Now it is time for NATO countries to build up their own military force and weapons, and stop relying on the US.
No matter how angry we are about this, not one American life should be lost to protect a country that would not protect itself.
I read a report this morning that even though there are 40+ million Ukraine people, they only have 1.3 million guns between them as private citizens.
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There were roughly 10 million firearms in private hands in the Ukraine at last credible pre-invasion count, with only 800k actually registered.
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The west lost this months ago. There will be no attacks from aircraft on station. Some sound like kids playing cowboys. Russia / Putin is not a fanatic. No nuclear weapons will be used. Standard Communist tactics will be used against the population once they are rolled over. I would guess Putin wants to save as much infrastructure as possible. As far as persons of interest, I’m sure they have complete lists. The amount of corruption in Ukraine is more than likely networked with Russian oligarchs who are allowed to prosper at Putin’s pleasure. This is a done deal. The West is going to beat their lips and rattle their swords, and pray Putin doesn’t do anything that forces them to do something.
I hate to say it but I have to agree with all of that.
cmj8591
Member
So I guess I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for Tula steel case to go on sale.
I hope the American people learn from this. We allow our politicians to interfere with politics in foreign lands. A good example was given on the Russian situation. The west rings Russian border with Nato. Yet we would act swiftly, and did when Russia was going to put missiles in Cuba.
Russia and Putin are Communist bad actors but you still have to look at this from their perspective. In fact a good portion of all present day problems stem from post WW1 meddling by England & France for the benefit of the big money. Today it’s worse because big money is over riding nationalism.
If truth was know Putin and the other Communist dictators own big chunks of “our” multi national corps.
Russia and Putin are Communist bad actors but you still have to look at this from their perspective. In fact a good portion of all present day problems stem from post WW1 meddling by England & France for the benefit of the big money. Today it’s worse because big money is over riding nationalism.
If truth was know Putin and the other Communist dictators own big chunks of “our” multi national corps.
OP
LVSteve
Member
Only if NATO actually steps up. Just sayin'.
So; we have been helping Ukraine learn democracy since 1992. They've gotten better at it, and in a generation would have gained EU accession. The Ukrainians have wanted nothing to do with Russian kleptocracy - not under Bush 1, Clinton, Bush 2, Obama, and Trump. Now they pay in blood for not bending their knees to Putin.
My only sympathies in this are for people who want to be free, have worked at it, and did nothing at all to provoke Russia.
We used to stand for freedom.
We guaranteed Ukraine's borders in '94 so they would give up their nukes. How's that working for Ukraine?
MEMORANDUM ON SECURITY ASSURANCES IN CONNECTION WITH UKRAINE’S ACCESSION TO THE TREATY ON THE NON-PROLIFERATION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS
Budapest, 5 December 1994
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,
Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon State,
Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,
Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces.
Confirm the following:
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.
This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature.
Signed in four copies having equal validity in the English, Russian and Ukrainian languages.
Budapest Accord: a treaty? – Treaty Law
My only sympathies in this are for people who want to be free, have worked at it, and did nothing at all to provoke Russia.
We used to stand for freedom.
We guaranteed Ukraine's borders in '94 so they would give up their nukes. How's that working for Ukraine?
MEMORANDUM ON SECURITY ASSURANCES IN CONNECTION WITH UKRAINE’S ACCESSION TO THE TREATY ON THE NON-PROLIFERATION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS
Budapest, 5 December 1994
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,
Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon State,
Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,
Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces.
Confirm the following:
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.
This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature.
Signed in four copies having equal validity in the English, Russian and Ukrainian languages.
Budapest Accord: a treaty? – Treaty Law
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UncleEd
Member
This invasion will be a good
test of just how rock solid
the Russian forces are and
if their morale is good.
test of just how rock solid
the Russian forces are and
if their morale is good.
The only person I’ve heard call this all, Russian step by step from the get go, was retired General Jack Keane.
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smithra_66
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What's wrong with Ukraine wanting to be in NATO? We don't base our foreign policy on what dictators want to do. Should we just say "sorry, you can't join the free, civilized world because you're too close to Russia?"
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I‘ll be more careful with predictions, haven‘t done too well so far. I believed an invasion of the still Ukrainian-controlled parts of the two “newly independent republics” in eastern Ukraine to be likely. I did not expect a full-on invasion. Putin is obviously considerably more “daring” or “reckless” (depending on your perspective) than I would have thought.
But as the Prussian Field Marshal Helmuth von Moltke wrote in 1871, no operational plan is likely to survive first contact with the enemy (famously rephrased by Mike Tyson as everybody having a plan until they’re punched in the mouth).
As Osama bin Laden found out, your initial plan to shake up the world can succeed spectacularly …. and the long-term results still be very different, maybe the opposite, from what you intended.
It seems likely that Putin will “win” the initial war. But that’s likely only the beginning. Remember “Mission Accomplished” in 2003?
But as the Prussian Field Marshal Helmuth von Moltke wrote in 1871, no operational plan is likely to survive first contact with the enemy (famously rephrased by Mike Tyson as everybody having a plan until they’re punched in the mouth).
As Osama bin Laden found out, your initial plan to shake up the world can succeed spectacularly …. and the long-term results still be very different, maybe the opposite, from what you intended.
It seems likely that Putin will “win” the initial war. But that’s likely only the beginning. Remember “Mission Accomplished” in 2003?
OP
LVSteve
Member
The following is in no way an endorsement of the current Russian action.
Consider this:
If Mexico had applied to join the Warsaw Pact in the 60s or 70s, what would have been the reaction of the US?
The following is in no way an endorsement of the current Russian action.
Consider this:
If Mexico had applied to join the Warsaw Pact in the 60s or 70s, what would have been the reaction of the US?
It wouldn't have been invasion. That was the time of the Cold War. There was not a similar situation before yesterday. Today there is.
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DWalt
Member
I had no doubts that once Putin decided to cross the border, he would keep on rolling to take over the entirety of the Ukraine, and maybe beyond. That was always his plan. In for a penny, in for a pound. I just cannot see NATO having the will to do anything beyond vocally objecting should Putin push into the Baltic states and Poland. They will be on their own.
Meanwhile in the South China Sea………………
Bajadoc
US Veteran
Putin has said that the worse thing that has ever happened in the history of the world is the breakup of the Soviet Union. Everything he thinks and does is through this filter. He will do anything short of self-destruction to reform the USSR. Anything he thinks he can get away with toward the goal of reforming the USSR he will do. In his mind, it is his destiny to rebuild the Soviet Union. And, he is nuts.
Do you wonder if this would have happened had Ukraine kept their nuclear weapons they inherited during the “fall” of he Soviet Union?
Me thinks not.
Me thinks not.
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