The Hammer or the Screwdriver?

[Bloodborne]

I've been carrying a Smith 38 special snub since the early 80s. Or a Charter Bulldog .44 special when practical. (Being old school, I don't trust semi-autos)

I've shot every kind of hollow point ammunition I've been able to get my hands on over the last forty years or so and have yet to find one that RELIABLY expands out of my two inch snubs. The few that do expand from time to time lack the penetration I demand. (+p or standard pressure) This seems to still be valid today regardless of newer offerings.

That is why I have always carried the lowly wadcutter loaded hot. I discovered Buffalo Bore about ten years ago and now carry the 150 grain full wadcutter in my .38 and the 200 grain in my Bulldog.

Recently, a friend gave me a box of Underwood Xtreme Defender 100 grain .38 special +p. Fired the twenty round box and was impressed with the power and accuracy. The recoil was actually quite a bit less than my old tried and true wadcutters.

BUT MY GOD, THEY'RE EXPENSIVE! Question is, are they worth it? I've seen the jelly tests, but jello ain't flesh. I've dispatched quite a few critters over the years with my preferred ammo to great effect, but I'm open to something new...if it's an improvement. Penetration AND damage comparable to a hollow point from a snubby seems too good to be true. Any thoughts or experience would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Truckman]

I discovered Buffalo Bore about ten years ago and now carry the 150 grain full wadcutter in my .38

That's the exact same ammo I carry in either of my S&W EDC's...I carry Buffalo Bore 230 gr. FMJ's in my .45...I figure the WC's will cut nice clean round holes in flesh and blood vessels just as well as it will in paper...The FMJ's served our military well for decades, and properly placed will discourage any attacker I'm likely to face...I don't need ballistics reports in gelatin to have confidence in what I carry for self defense......Ben

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I carry the Speer 135gr GDHP Short Barrel ammo in my J frame. They have been very accurate for me.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Paul Harrell has tested quite a few different loads using Lehigh bullets in different calibers on the "meat target"... It is definitely not jelly.

Cheers!

P.S. They are a whole lot le$$ expen$ive when one reloads!

 

[30-30remchester]

I study terminal ballistics. Recovered bullets from game animals are particularly interesting. I have nearly 200 recovered bullets. Most actually killed the animal, but some were shot into the animals soon after they expired. Hollow point expanding bullets have come a LONG way in the last 50 years. I am getting good expansion from even little 380's. Just this year I got good expansion and penetration from a tiny Walther TPH and CCI Stingers on a mule deer. Those early hollow points were dismal to say the least.

 

[Bloodborne]

Paul Harrell has tested quite a few different loads using Lehigh bullets in different calibers on the "meat target"... It is definitely not jelly.

Cheers!

I have watched them. What I'd like to see is a side by side comparison between the Lehigh and BB wadcutters. Any links of that nature? I'm hoping the Lehigh will perform better than the wadcutters. I'm starting to become a bit recoil sensitive with lightweight guns.

 

[Bloodborne]

I study terminal ballistics. Recovered bullets from game animals are particularly interesting. I have nearly 200 recovered bullets. Most actually killed the animal, but some were shot into the animals soon after they expired. Hollow point expanding bullets have come a LONG way in the last 50 years. I am getting good expansion from even little 380's. Just this year I got good expansion and penetration from a tiny Walther TPH and CCI Stingers on a mule deer. Those early hollow points were dismal to say the least.

I recovered a .45+p 230 grain Winchester Ranger HP from a racoon fired from a Ruger 5.5 inch Blackhawk Convertable. Expanded to almost one inch, but only penetrated 4 inches. Killed him graveyard dead, but four inches? Please.

 

[30-30remchester]

I recovered a .45+p 230 grain Winchester Ranger HP from a racoon fired from a Ruger 5.5 inch Blackhawk Convertable. Expanded to almost one inch, but only penetrated 4 inches. Killed him graveyard dead, but four inches? Please.

Using a 45 ACP I recovered 6 out of 9 Winchester Silvertips from a doe antelope. All expanded violently but penetration suffered. She showed virtually no response to each shot. Even though my 45 ACP is my bedside gun for 40 plus years, I started doubting the stories I had heard of tremendous knock down power of the cartridge. Further actual use confirmed my doubts.

 

[murphydog]

Having no personal experience in terminal ballistics and hoping never to have any on either the giving or receiving end, my thought would be to use ammunition that has a proven record of effectiveness in the real world. This will usually mean loads used by law enforcement, who encounter a wide variety of people and sadly sometimes have to use deadly force.

For .38 Special, when the NYPD authorized revolvers the above-mentioned Speer Gold Dot had a good reputation when used. Not to say that other loads won't be effective but this one was proven over many years of service. I also can't imagine that it was the "lowest bidder wins" choice over that time period. Good luck in your decision.

 

[Bloodborne]

Yep, those rounds work well from the standard issue model ten in a four-inch barrel. I guess I'll have to take a wait and see approach on the Extreme defender offering. I'd like to try the .44 version, but too expensive and too new. Guess I'll just have to wait and see. In the meantime, wadcutters work well enough I suppose.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Paul Harrell has tested quite a few different loads using Lehigh bullets in different calibers on the "meat target"... It is definitely not jelly.

Cheers!

I have watched them. What I'd like to see is a side by side comparison between the Lehigh and BB wadcutters. Any links of that nature? I'm hoping the Lehigh will perform better than the wadcutters. I'm starting to become a bit recoil sensitive with lightweight guns.

Well, you could always send him a couple of boxes of both and a request for a side by side...?. He's been known to do things like that upon request.

But... The "meat target" is basically the "meat target": both would seem to work just fine.

Cheers!

 

[chief38]

In 38 Special, the two best Snubby loadings I've found are the Buffalo Bore 158 Grain +P LSWCHP-GC and the Speer +P GD 135 grain GDHP. The Buffalo Bore load will do an honest 1025 fps out of the Snubby barrel and also packs a stiff recoil. While the Speer loading does have less recoil, it will deliver the lighter bullet (by 23 grains) about 150 fps slower. While some like the very reliable expansion of the Speer GDHP, the Buffalo Bore is definitely the "big bruiser" here. All that is great however many do not want to deal with the stiff recoil of the BB load.

In either case, you have two very good choices here and I honestly know of no better loads out there right now. While there have been a bunch of new fangled bullet designs and new Company's entering the .38 spl. market over the last few years, I much prefer to continue to use tried and true bullets as I have yet to see any evidence that new bullet designs are better - to me they are not even as good.

I can't really say much about the 44 spl. (no real personal testing experience with that caliber) but Speer and Buffalo Bore do make loads in that caliber as well. Might be the place to look.

 

[RCL-09]

For .38 Special, when the NYPD authorized revolvers the above-mentioned Speer Gold Dot had a good reputation when used. Not to say that other loads won't be effective but this one was proven over many years of service. I also can't imagine that it was the "lowest bidder wins" choice over that time period. Good luck in your decision.

I can confirm that pricing was not the determining factor on the ammunition selected by the department I work for.

It was all about performance.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Search the Federal HST Micro 130gr JHPWC as an alternative: mostly excellent reviews...

Cheers!

P.S. I reload these as well...

 

[Rudi]

I have not seen any Buffalo Bore since the madness began.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

For .38 Special, when the NYPD authorized revolvers the above-mentioned Speer Gold Dot had a good reputation when used. Not to say that other loads won't be effective but this one was proven over many years of service. I also can't imagine that it was the "lowest bidder wins" choice over that time period. Good luck in your decision.

I can confirm that pricing was not the determining factor on the ammunition selected by the department I work for.

It was all about performance.

This is very true. When Speer brought their 9mm ammo to the NYPD for test ion the officers who were still carrying revolvers said what about us. Speer went back home and developed the 135gr GDHP ammo for revolvers. It was destinies for both short barrel snub nose and 4" revolvers.

 

[crstrode]

Penetration AND damage comparable to a hollow point from a snubby seems too good to be true. Any thoughts or experience would be greatly appreciated.

Hand loaded 148 grain full-power double ended wadcutters are one of my favorites.

The best velocity from a 38 snubby shooting out a bullet of decent mass is usually way less than needed for expansion. Even at 900 FPS most bullets - hollow point or not - will not expand.

Little lightweight high-velocity bullets that MIGHT expand, are just that: little lightweight very hollow wisps of bullets. Sledge hammers are blunt, heavy, and slow, for a reason.

With expansion in doubt, the best thing is full penetration with a heavy blunt bullet.

If you don't want to take out a loan for Buffalo Bore, 4.4 grains of Unique under a hardcast full wadcutter, seated flush, shoots straight and hits hard from a snubby. This is not an over-pressure load, but it is great for social work.

 

[Biggfoot44]

My Take :

The Theory behind the " Philips Screwdriver " bullets is sound . The have the * Potential * to be on par with decent HP that expand , plus be more forgiving of impact velocity , without abrupt cutoff thresholds .

Are we there yet ? Probably not . Another 5- 10 yrs of serious R&D , plus real world feedback , we might be getting there .

 

[ddixie884]

I have not seen any Buffalo Bore since the madness began.

You can mail order direct from them and they show most of their ammo in stock. 12 boxes of assorted ammo gets free shipping........

 

[Nevada Ed]

Never tried the "Phillips"...........

but there is nothing wrong with the big heavy 158 gr lead bullet at 850fps or faster, if......
you are shooting it out of a K frame.

Out of my little light J frame I only load the 135 Gold Dot or 130 Federal HST
for my SD work, if I ever need it.

If all else fails or I run out of these two, the only other load that will give me
3-4 FAST follow up shots and be on target is a standard loading of a LWC 158 gr bullet.....
but that is my last choice for a SD load in my J frames.