The Russians have gone in

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We are right now a net exporter of petroleum and have been only in 2021. We had been a net importer since the late 1940s, as I recall. I'll add the link in a few.

Only because they count the oil that goes from Alaska to the Orient due to not enough refinery capacity on the west coast. They play with those numbers by differentiating the types of petroleum. Right now, overall we import about 20% more petroleum products than we export.

How much oil does the U.S. export and import? | American Geosciences Institute
 
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Why Smithra_66 do you
keep insisting the only
two avenues are "do nothing"
or go full out war?

Do you not see other avenues
including the one the West
is now pursuing?

And I do not see why you are
so dismissive of Ukraine as
a sovereign state with rights
that should not be trampled
by Putin.

Well we're letting him do it. We need to get over that. It's happening. And my original point was in response to someone saying we need to stop Russia from doing it.

Check the thread.

My point was that Ukraine is not worth the USA fighting Russia for, and it seems we all agree on that!
 
Invade Russia??? Who has even mentioned that?

Why are you setting up straw man arguments? And why do you refuse to acknowledge the gravity of what is happening here?

Did you not check your own post? You're the one I was originally responding to. You said that we've "let Putin get away with this" for years and invoked the analogy of what we did in 1990 when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait.

What exactly did you mean by that? We went to war with Iraq when they did that.

I asked you if a backward, corrupt country like Ukraine was worth going to war for. Right now, ZERO NATO countries think its worth fighting Russia for.

I asked you if you wanted war with Russia over Ukraine and if you'd be willing to give the order, but it sounds like you're backtracking now.

To be clear: You don't think Ukraine is worth fighting a war with Russia over, either, right?
 
If Putin thought we would have given the order, he would not have gone into Ukraine. First, we should give Ukraine planes. If that doesn't work, then we should impose a NATO enforced no fly zone. And we should continue to provide weapons to the Ukraine Army. As much as they need. If that doesn't turn them back, then yes, we should use ground troops. We should not allow Russia to end Ukraine sovereignty no matter what we have to commit militarily, up to and including nuclear weapons.

Wow, at least you're the first one here to specifically state what you'd do...I give you credit.

But, I deduct massive points on your insane idea that we should go to NUCLEAR WAR with Russia because they invade Ukraine.

That's bald-faced craziness.
 
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Only because they count the oil that goes from Alaska to the Orient due to not enough refinery capacity on the west coast. They play with those numbers by differentiating the types of petroleum. Right now, overall we import about 20% more petroleum products than we export.

How much oil does the U.S. export and import? | American Geosciences Institute
I guess the folks who collect the royalties are those I believe. Are you saying we are NOT a net exporter of petroleum?

Your link is 2018 data.
 
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It's impossible to discuss this without talking about the political undertones that created the situation...

I respectfully disagree, sir. It is entirely possible to keep this discussion free of our domestic politics...it's just that some members don't want to do that.

I am a political and current events junkie, and the most opinionated so-and-so you'll ever meet on those issues. And yes, there are a lot of political undertones, going back decades, that have helped lead to this situation.

But the underlying cause of what we're seeing on today's news, and discussing here on this thread, is not what's happened in Washington over the last twenty years; it's Vladimir Putin's unbridled and undisguised ambition, and his despicable invasion of Ukraine. This thread was started in response to that event, and exists only because of it.

Allusions to or references to our domestic politics on here do nothing but divert the discussion, provoke people, and endanger what has been one of the most interesting and informative threads I've ever seen, on this or any other social media site.
 
Did you not check your own post? You're the one I was originally responding to. You said that we've "let Putin get away with this" for years and invoked the analogy of what we did in 1990 when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait.

What exactly did you mean by that? We went to war with Iraq when they did that.

I asked you if a backward, corrupt country like Ukraine was worth going to war for. Right now, ZERO NATO countries think its worth fighting Russia for.

I asked you if you wanted war with Russia over Ukraine and if you'd be willing to give the order, but it sounds like you're backtracking now.

To be clear: You don't think Ukraine is worth fighting a war with Russia over, either, right?

Sir, you are so consumed with being "right" on here that you either don't understand what I've written, or you're deliberating misrepresenting what I've said. Either way, I will not respond any further to your trolling. Have a good day.
 
You could be right

What we think here individually is largely irrelevant since the political reality out there is crystal clear:

We as the West are not stopping Putin in Ukraine, and there is no political will or majority in any NATO country to do so. In the US, the latest surveys from reliable pollsters show somewhere between two-thirds and three-quarters of Americans opposed to any course of action that would risk direct war with Russia.

Personally, I'd be willing to take a lot more risks. But I'm old and sick and have no children, so when it comes to nuclear mushrooms … hey, bucket list item. But no responsible leader can take that attitude.

There is a red line, but it runs along Ukraine's Western borders.

So instead, we are working to make Putin stop. That's a different game, but it's the only one there is. Remember that no nuclear power that lost a "small war" has ever actually been defeated; instead, they pack it in because costs and benefits are no longer worth the trouble. France in Algeria, the US in Vietnam, Russia and the US in Afghanistan, the British in Northern Ireland … always the same story.

We're trying for the same thing, just hopefully with a shorter timeline. Momentum is important. Because quite frankly, I don't trust the enthusiasm and focus of Western, particularly American audiences. This could drag on, and settle into a stalemate of sorts; hoping for regime change in Moscow may be futile. Ukraine could even end up as the Germany of the new Cold War, divided into a Russian and a Western part, a constant source of friction as boredom sets in.

Thanks for your analysis. I think it quite likely that a partition of Ukraine takes place, with the Ukrainians giving up the east and renouncing claims to Crimea and any plan to join NATO.

What might follow that is anyone's guess.
 
The 3-star commander of Russia's Black Sea fleet, Andrei Paly, was reportedly shot dead near the Mariupol siege.
8be4b9f53cd9ff5e845da7b258b1ca28.jpg

From the NY Times today:

Ivor Prickett, Reporting from Kyiv, Ukraine

A funeral was held in Crimea for the deputy commander of Russia's Black Sea fleet, Capt. First Rank Andrei Paliy, who was killed in fighting near Mariupol, Ukraine. He is one of several senior Russian commanders who have died in the war.

23ukraine-blog-reporterupdate-funeral-superJumbo.jpg
 
Looks like about 30k-40k killed, wounded, or POW. Not comforting if you started with 170,000.

Russia may have suffered between 30,000 and 40,000 battlefield casualties in Ukraine, according to a senior Nato military officer.

The military officer, speaking on condition of anonymity under ground rules set by Nato, added between 7,000 and 15,000 Russians had been killed since it invaded its neighbour on 24 February.

The estimate of those killed is based on information from the Ukrainian government, indications from Russia, and open-source data, Associated Press reported.

It is Nato's first public estimate of Russian casualties since the beginning of the war.
Russia has suffered up to 40,000 casualties, claims Nato
 
You don't see this every day:

Russian troops have committed war crimes in Ukraine, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said Wednesday, issuing a statement that blasted Russia for 'deliberately targeting civilians, as well as other atrocities" less than a week after President Joe Biden called Russian President Vladimir Putin a "war criminal." U.S. Declares Russia Has Committed War Crimes In Ukraine

This makes continuing post-war sanctions really easy.
 
Haha. This guy has it right:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9mR36gJB6I[/ame]
 
The Smaller Bombs That Could Turn Ukraine Into a Nuclear War Zone

Another NYT article. Not comforting.

Concern about these smaller arms has soared as Vladimir V. Putin, in the Ukraine war, has warned of his nuclear might, has put his atomic forces on alert and has had his military carry out risky attacks on nuclear power plants. The fear is that if Mr. Putin feels cornered in the conflict, he might choose to detonate one of his lesser nuclear arms — breaking the taboo set 76 years ago after Hiroshima and Nagasaki...

..."The chances are low but rising," said Ulrich Kühn, a nuclear expert at the University of Hamburg and the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. "The war is not going well for the Russians," he observed, "and the pressure from the West is increasing."

Mr. Putin might fire a weapon at an uninhabited area instead of at troops, Dr. Kühn said. In a 2018 study, he laid out a crisis scenario in which Moscow detonated a bomb over a remote part of the North Sea as a way to signal deadlier strikes to come...

Washington expects more atomic moves from Mr. Putin in the days ahead. Moscow is likely to "increasingly rely on its nuclear deterrent to signal the West and project strength" ...​
 
Wow, at least you're the first one here to specifically state what you'd do...I give you credit.

But, I deduct massive points on your insane idea that we should go to NUCLEAR WAR with Russia because they invade Ukraine.

That's bald-faced craziness.

We would not go to nuclear war over Ukraine. We would go to nuclear war because Russia shot first. Nuclear deterrence only works if the one you are trying to deter believes that you have the will to use them. If you loose the will to fight with them, then the nuclear deterrence goes away. Putin was told before he ever stepped over the boarder into Ukraine that NATO would not get in his way. He didn't even have to think twice about having to oppose NATO ground forces. He was told over and over that he would not have to fight NATO or US armies. Maybe if the threat of having to fight a ground war was left on the table it might have changed things. Maybe it wouldn't. We'll never know. But it's hard to listen to the leaders of the free world, watch this unfold and not think of Nevil Chamberlain and Czechoslovacia, 1938.
 
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