State live fire accuracy requirements

[Borderboss]

Thanks for clarification ispcapt.

I incorrectly identified the BIG silhouette. I had no idea you could pull 7 out of the black and pass! That's just scary.

I originally shot it with a 3" 36-1. For my requal last year I used my 640P. Both times I choked and pulled a single round out into the 9 ring.

I agree that it's scary. During my renewal range time, one of the guy was using a .22 auto. If that's what you need to make sure you can qualify, then you shouldn't be carrying. As responsible gun owners, we have a responsibility to be likely to hit the target in a self defense scenario. Hitting innocent bystanders will reflect on all of us. While I dislike California generally, I agree with the requirement to shoot a carry gun in the live fire qualification.

 

[Krogen]

No live fire or classroom time is required in Washington. It's shall issue and thanks to statewide pre-emption, locals can't make up local rules. Doesn't mean they don't try now and then. My last renewal was online and showed up in the mail shortly thereafter. Although it's annoying to be milked by the system for a right, CPLs are still pretty reasonable here. I wish I could say the same for the other onerous laws recently passed.

 

[Bald1]

It's hard to show causation and directionality for a few reasons:

- The states with the strictest gun control, have the most gun violence. But they also have high population densities and lots of social problems. They also tend to be pretty diverse with lots of what we will just call "issues" to stay away from all of the banned forum topics, which pretty well outline many of those issues.

- I lived in SD for the largest portion of my life and I ran the permit versus population numbers once and determined 1 in 7 adults in SD had concealed carry permits, although I suspect the number carrying daily was probably 1 in 14 to 1 in 20 adults range. Still, an armed society is a polite society and with 1 in 7 or even 1 in 20 chance of the person you are fixing to start something with is armed with a gun, you are likely to reconsider whether you really want to start anything at all. I saw much higher levels of tolerance and politeness in SD than I saw in DC, VA, NC or MN when I lived in those states.

It's clear however, that gun control doesn't address the things that underpin gun violence.

It's also pretty clear that the vast majority of mass shootings and gun crime are not committed by gun people. The Vegas shooter was a exception but most gun criminal, like most police officers, just are not "gun people". The pattern in most mass shootings seems to be a mail adjusted individual bent on suicide buying or otherwise obtaining a gun for the purpose of the shooting.

In contrast if you've been a gun owner for a few years and have not yet done something criminal or stupid with it, you're a pretty good risk.

Several states have done studies on concealed handgun permit holders and the results have been consistent, finding concealed carry permit holders are 6 to 7 times less likely to commit a felony or misdemeanor than a police officer. Police officers in turn are about 3 times less likely to commit a felony or misdemeanor than the general public. That makes concealed carry permit holders about 20 times less likely to commit a crime than the average person.

Concealed carry permits, and the vetting involved are a good thing.

Your first paragraph is what I'm referring to. They never want to address the root problems. That might cost them some votes. The governor of Illinois says guns are the problem in Chicago. Not gangs.

 

[djohns6]

I have mixed opinions . I've been in CHP classes with people that had no business owning a firearm much less carrying one in public . They were going to be a danger to themselves and others .

 

[pharmer]

I didn't see any Florida replies so.....
When I got my permit in 1988 we had 4 hours classroom, 4 hours range. Box of 50 .38 reloads provided. No minimum score necessary from the 30 rds although some Brinks guys mixed in needed 98/150 to pass. Some didn't.
Currently, the State of Florida "assumes proficiency" in the folks wanting a license. My wife did it maybe 10 years ago, paid her money at the Orlando gunshow, sat the 2 hours, went out to the "container range", popped off her 2 shots and "here's your signed." Since Khaled bought the show you need to go to the Apopka store to pop your rounds, or at least that's how it was a few years ago when "the Doc" was paying for everybody who asked him for the "class." Joe

 

[BB57]

I have mixed opinions . I've been in CHP classes with people that had no business owning a firearm much less carrying one in public . They were going to be a danger to themselves and others .

I agree, although I think North Carolina does it better than any state I've lived and carried in.

Live fire qualification in NC is also designed to ensure the person can safety handle a firearm, and in fact that's far more important than the qualification score.

A legitimate instructor is going to fail a person who demonstrates unsafe gun handling. If they are just not the kind of person who can handle a gun safety he'll take them aside and suggest they opt for another method of self defense.

The 8 hours of academics, split 4 and 4 between gun safety and laws pertaining to the use of lethal force in self defense also play a role. The first drives the point home that improperly handled guns can cause harm to self or others, and the second drives home the point that if you shoot someone without being confronted with a narrowly defined imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury, you are going to jail. A good instructor also makes it clear that unless it's a crystal clear case with numerous witnesses supporting the fact it was a good shoot, you are probably still going to jail until the states attorneys office comes to a decision on the validity of the self defense aspects of the shoot.

Given what's learned in the course, I suspect a lot of people learn it's not what they thought it was and either don't follow through with the permit application, or don't actually carry concealed. In NC a concealed handgun permit satisfies the Brady requirement and no NICS check is required.

And of course a I suspect there are a few people who take the class as part of the prerequisites for applying for the permit and are subsequently denied based on the criminal background check or mental health check.

However, you have to balance that with the reality that NC is also an open carry state. Personally, when I'm in line at a convenience store and see someone open carrying I ask myself "why can't or won't he get a concealed carry permit? " and then keep an eye on him as a potential threat.

My sole objection to the NC process is that it's ultimately expensive, currently costing between $300 and $350 to get a permit, once you add up course fees, live fire qualification ammo costs, permit fees and finger print fees. That's by design and is a hold over from a past….exclusionary practice. And to be fair that's one reason the open carry guy in the stab and grab may be open carrying.

——

Minnesota did nearly as well in terms of their over all education curriculum, and having a live fire training requirement. It was slightly less expensive than in an NC *initially* given I basically CLEP'd out of the training portion with just 6 rounds. Minnesota however requires the training to be repeated within 12 months of renewing the permit.

——-

South Dakota's approach is interesting as they've always had a low cost, no finger print back ground check, no training required concealed carry permit, and it's only been within about the last 15 years (since I left the state) that they adopted the additional Gold Card and Enhanced permits.

The gold card permit adds a finger print back ground check.

The Enhanced permit adds academic training and live fire training. In addition, unlike most states with training and or live fire requirements, SD requires those items to be repeated during the period of the permit for the permit to be renewed.

The incentive was supposed to be greater reciprocity, but the enhanced permit is currently recognized by 39 states, compared to 34 for the Gold Card permit and Regular permits. Five states isn't a big difference, but the big sell is that neither NE or MN recognize the Regular or Gold Permits but do recognize the Enhanced permit.

But..the interesting part is that South Dakota became a Constitutional Carry state, and as of July 1, 2022 also dropped the fees for its permits which were previously $10, $40 and $60 respectively.

My take away on that is that SD would much prefer their residents get a permit rather than just rely on Constitutional Carry, and that they'd prefer people opt for the higher level permits for the training and/or background check they'd get in the process.

In short, despite Constitutional Carry, the state seems to have some unspoken reservations about just anyone carrying concealed without training or a back ground check.

 

[johngalt]

In MN, 4 hour class which includes 12 rounds live fired. Not scored, but to observe gun safety skills.

 

[johngalt]

I'll speak to the states I have experience with:

South Dakota:

At the time I lived there SD charged $5 for a permit. It did not require a fingerprint background check. It took less than a week to get the permit from the local sheriffs office.

Since then they have added the enhanced permit amd gold card permit options to the regular permit.

The enhanced permit requires:
- a finger print background check
- academic training including;
South Dakota law relating to firearms and the use of force;
The basic concepts of the safe and responsible use of handguns;
Self-defense principles; and
-live fire "training" with at least 98 rounds fired by the student.

The gold card permit is the same as the regular permit but with a finger print back ground check.

As of July 1 2022, they have waived all the permit fees, except for county level administration fees, like finger print fees.

Virginia:

At the time I was there (2007) they required a finger print background check and academic training but no live fire training.

The state law required the permit application be processed within 45 days. Since I lived in Arlington county which is pretty anti gun, after nearly six months of calling and asking about it, I went down and demanded it. They got it out of a file drawer in less than a minute, and I gathered they just elected to deny the permits were processed until people showed up or lawyered up.

North Carolina:

NC require 8 hours of academic training, 4 hours of which is Gun safety and 4 hours of which is in the laws pertaining to the use of lethal force in self defense. They also require a finger print background check, and a release to check the two state hospitals for mental health treatment records.

They also require live fire "qualification". The courses are approved by the state and the standards for the live fire qualification are left to the discretion of the person seeking course approval, although it does need to be approved. Most seem to use one of the various law enforcement qualification courses with 40 or 50 pounds and require something on the order of 80% of the rounds to hit a B-27 target.

This was done with a Kimber Ultra Carry in .45 ACP. The nines we the result of pushing a little too much in some double taps and the 8 is just embarrassing. Most of the people qualifying however had rounds scattered all over the target. I don't recall anyone not qualifying so it's still a low bar.

Minnesota

MN also required a finger print background check, a one day academic course and live fire "qualification".

The qualification was more of a pass/fail "can you shoot a gun safely and hit a B-27 sized target at 5 yards" exercise. The instructor worked with the students 1 on 1 and as watched him coach students until they could reliably hit the target.

When he got to me he noted I was shooting and K frame revolver and asked me to fire six rounds at the target. I had my 3" Model 66 with my .357 Mag self defense load and put all six shots in a 1.5" group in the x ring of a B-27 target at five yards rapid fire.

He said "I noticed you did that double action, that's good". He asked me if I was shooting .357 Mag and I replied I was. He said "of course" followed by "you passed" and moving on to the next student. So that was it - six rounds.

The MN permit doesn't require fingerprints.

 

[Chubbs103]

CA permitting is through your county (permit valid statewide). The state requires live-fire be part of the course, however, I believe the content of the live-fire is up to the county. My counties range requirement:

12 rounds: 4 rounds at 5 yards, 2 rounds gun hand only then 2 rounds support hand only from 5 yards, and 4 rounds at 7 yards. The passing score is 75% which equals missing 3 rounds outside the bottle outline on a standard FBI-Q target or its equivalent.

I've seen the support hand only section require remediation.

All weapons you are authorized to carry are listed by serial number (up to 10) on your permit. You must qualify with each one listed.

I have thought of adding one of my .22s to the mix just for certain outdoor activities including ad hoc small game hunting.

 

[AzShooter]

Arizona no longer requires any live fire which I think is a mistake. It was only 10 - 15 rounds in the past at a USPSA target from 10 yards. All you had to do was hit the target.

I even saw a blind guy get his CCW after watching him miss the target with all 10 shots. The instructor kept him after we all left and coached him. He was given his CCW.

Last time I renewed the instructor tried to talk everyone out of getting their permit. Arizona has open carry and you don't need a permit for concealed. Only reason I got mine this time is for when I want to buy a gun. I don't have to wait for the FBI background check.

 

[max503]

Here in Texas, live fire is 50 rounds at from 3 to 15 yards on a larger than life size silhouette. As long as you don't shoot the instructor, you are good to go.

A female coworker got sent home for unsafe behavior during CC qualification. She had to go back and qualify in a later class. This happened in Illinois. I wasn't there but I know she had very bad gun handling habits. I hope she learned something.

 

[2wheels]

I have a Washington State permit, which still requires absolutely no training or live fire. You actually don't even need to know how to hold a firearm. I also have an Idaho Enhanced, which was 8 hour class, plus a 98 round live fire; two hands, strong hand, off hand, reload, etc… The Idaho class was excellent.

 

[Gamecock]

NY just passed a law that will require 2 hours of live fire with 18 hours of classes for pistol permit renewals.

I wonder if NY LEOs could pass.

 

[racoonbeast]

No permit of any sort required in New Hampshire. Open and concealed carry perfectly legal.

You can get a permit to show to other States that offer reciprocity if you want. You just go see the chief law enforcement officer in your area and give him ten bucks. No test. Nothing beyond filling out a form with your personal info and a check for ten bucks.

But, the permit is absolutely voluntary and not necessary in-State. If a person does not travel, he would have no use for one.

Our Republican Gov will not sign any type of gun legislation. He tosses a bunch out that the Libtards submit just about every year. Don't know what is going to happen when he moves on and the Libtards get in (law of averages says that they will someday). Probably nothing good.

 

[scooter123]

I got my first Michigan CPL back in 2008 and at that time there was 6 hours of class room time and 2 hours slotted for the live fire. There was no actual limit for the live fire time, the requirement was to prove to the instructor that you were competent and that encompassed not just accuracy but also took in safe handling and a calm attitude.

 

[ironhead7544]

At one time in FL, permits were done by county. In Dade county, you had to fire on the 25 Yard Timed and Rapid target that was used for the National Matches. This is a round bullseye at 25 yards. It was slow fire. You had to produce three targets of 10 shots each at minimum 70%. A lot of people failed. You also had to qualify with any firearm you wanted to carry. The serial numbers were put on your permit.

 

[biku324]

Here's the NM concealed carry requirement:

10.8.2.15 FIREARMS TRAINING FOR APPLICANTS AND LICENSEES:

B. Competency demonstration.

(1) An applicant or licensee shall demonstrate competency in the safe use of each category and highest caliber of handgun for which he or she seeks certification by firing the handgun with live ammunition at a target no larger than 12 inches wide and 18 inches high.

(2) An applicant or licensee shall fire 15 rounds from three yards and 10 rounds from seven yards.

(3) An applicant or licensee shall score 4 points for each shot that hits within the scoring line and zero points for each shot that hits outside the scoring line. An applicant must obtain a score of seventy-two percent of the total score to pass
the competency demonstration.

 

[Sistema1927]

Another note on NM's requirements. When first enacted, the DPS wanted to impose a requirement that was more stringent than that for LEOs, to include night fire. They held public hearings at which I testified.

The Santa Fe Chief of Police testified just before me, gushing praise over the proposed requirements. I then said that maybe his officers should be held to the same standard, and showed, point by point, the absurdity of requiring CCW holders to obtain a higher standard.

Fortunately we ended up with what we did instead, even if what eventually resulted is quite silly.

 

[BB57]

The MN permit doesn't require fingerprints.

You are correct. I mis remembered it.

I had to make a trip down to the SO's office with the completed application where I anticipated being finger printed, but then wasn't.

——

In that same vein, NC requires you to schedule an interview for permit renewal. Again it was a cas of going down to the SO's office where after waiting 20 minutes or so they just handed me a new permit. Maybe only certain people get interviewed.

 

[johngalt]

You are correct. I mis remembered it.

I had to make a trip down to the SO's office with the completed application where I anticipated being finger printed, but then wasn't.

——

In that same vein, NC requires you to schedule an interview for permit renewal. Again it was a cas of going down to the SO's office where after waiting 20 minutes or so they just handed me a new permit. Maybe only certain people get interviewed.

At the height of the beer virus lockdowns, an appointment was required and they were supposedly booked up for months. When I finally got around to it they had rescinded that policy. I was in and out in less than 10 minutes. It showed up in the mail 2 weeks later.