Federal District Judge rules those indicted for a felony may purchase firearms

There is a very fundamental thread that runs through a just legal system. That would be that you can not punish people (or restrict their rights) in anticipation of what they might do. It exists to punish people for things that they have actually done. If you value the rights that are granted your citizens, and you wish them to value them, it has to be very difficult for them to lose them. Of course there will always be people who will demonstrate that they are not up to the responsibility of having these rights, but they have to demonstrate it through actual deeds. Not by carrying thoughts, or by other persons thinking that they are carrying certain thoughts.

I guess we all can think of a million ways that the above is not "common sense" and quote examples where we think that it should not apply. The "common sense" argument is the same one that that libs use to support their claim that the Constitution is outdated and needs to be trashed. How often have we heard that "it is only common sense that the Founding Fathers would not approve of the citizenry running around with these horrible weapons of war". Weapons of war were exactly what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they wrote the 2A. They sought to give the citizenry a counterbalance to governmental power. They were not hoping to further squirrel hunting.

Of course this situation is not perfect. Democracies are notoriously messy upon implementation. But, you either have to do it this way, or ignore a citizen's basic rights in situations that you think deserve it. Once you start to make exceptions where does it all end? What is important to me might not be important to you. What is important in Maine might not be important in Florida. Who would want to live in a system where you can be arrested or lose rights because someone believes that you might be thinking about breaking a law? For this very basic reason I predict that these new "Red Flag Laws" are going to go the way of the Dodo bird once they hit the Supreme Court. If not, things have really degenerated. When a system can ignore its basic building blocks in the name of "common sense", you have a system on the verge of collapse.
 
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If you are indicted and released from custody, it is nearly always a 'standard condition of release' imposed by the court that you not possess any firearms. If you violate your conditions of release, you can be returned to custody.

This 'you can indict a ham sandwich' urban myth is just nonsense in the real world. In the Federal system, once indicted, 83% of those charged/indicted are convicted, 17% acquitted. State felony courts are little different.

Only 2% of federal criminal defendants go to trial | Pew Research Center

https://www.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/data_tables/jb_d4_0930.2018.pdf
 
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I certainly here what your saying.
Innocent until proven guilty is a very important cornerstone of our justice system.
Easy to say and believe till we're talking about a pile of dead kids. Then its a cliff hanger

It's easy to say and believe even with "a pile of dead kids". If someone is arrested/indicted for causing "a pile of dead kids", that person is going to stay in jail until trial. Completely different issue.
 
Well, if arrested for a felony, be sure to advise the judge you are NOT going to comply with the conditions of release because you have 2nd Amendment rights and will possess firearms until convicted if you feel like it. Be sure to add, "...by God!".

Let us know how it works out.
 
I was actually in this situation several years ago. A drugged up in-law attacked my saint of a father in law without cause. I had to physically intervene. Said dude filed assault charges against me in a commonwealth state. I was an 'accused felon' until the case went to court almost 3 months later to get thrown out. I have an FFL, concealed carry and am a NRA certified handgun instructor (not to mention I was a gubment employee at the time and was put on unpaid leave until the case was settled).
 
Bail is not quite mandatory, and people can be remanded to custody. Bail can also come with stipulations and conditions.

As such, it is an interesting point. An indictment need not make one a prohibited person, certainly not an automatic designation. Some will say that "they will just make revocation of firearm control and possession a condition of bail", which they can. But, that actually reinforces the judge's decision 100%.

If the indicted is believed to be dangerous enough not to have weapons, that should be made a condition of bail, not an automatic revocation of rights. If they fear you are a flight risk, they can take your passport. They don't rip it out of your possession automatically. If it can be a condition of bail, it should be a condition of bail. Not an automatic ruling and condition.
 
Yes, you can be out on bail.

Unless bail is denied ;)

Bail always comes with rules and conditions, they vary between state and federal court.

If there are no priors, then I think no further rights (besides the rules and condition of bail) should be restricted while awaiting trial.
 
Well, if arrested for a felony, be sure to advise the judge you are NOT going to comply with the conditions of release because you have 2nd Amendment rights and will possess firearms until convicted if you feel like it. Be sure to add, "...by God!".

Let us know how it works out.

Akin to sending food back to the kitchen with an attitude. Be nice and polite or you may get some special sauce added to your meal.
 
If you are indicted and released from custody, it is nearly always a 'standard condition of release' imposed by the court that you not possess any firearms. If you violate your conditions of release, you can be returned to custody.

This 'you can indict a ham sandwich' urban myth is just nonsense in the real world. In the Federal system, once indicted, 83% of those charged/indicted are convicted, 17% acquitted. State felony courts are little different.

Only 2% of federal criminal defendants go to trial | Pew Research Center

https://www.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/data_tables/jb_d4_0930.2018.pdf

So, the 17% who are acquitted should have lost their rights because the majority are guilty. The Constitution and the 2nd protects your RIGHTS. It is not something a statistical majority rules.

I can also see some people thinking while some of those who got acquitted were guilty, they just beat the system. Well, we are also finding some of those convicted have set in prison for what they did not do. But, then hey at least thy got a trail before loosing their rights. A principle this country was founded on,.

It is all fine and good until YOU are the one indicted for a crime you did not commit and according to you own statistic that happens 17% of the time.

Both myself and one of my brothers have been charged with a felony (different instances). Neither of us were guilty and proved it in court. My charge was brought by an assistant DA who had recently from CA. I didn't need a jury, the judge gave it the heave ho. The DA who went after my brother had his eye on being a judge. LOL he lost his job after it was all over.

Being charged does not mean your guilty and like it or not

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY

I though another cornerstone of our system was that the RIGHTS of the few were not succeeded by the NEEDS of the many.

If they are actually thought to be dangerous enough to that the court feels they should not have a gun, why are they being released in the first place? Anyone with 2 working brain cells knows a law will not stop them from getting one
 
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So, the 17% who are acquitted should have lost their rights because the majority are guilty. The Constitution and the 2nd protects your RIGHTS. It is not something a statistical majority rules.

I can also see some people thinking while some of those who got acquitted were guilty, they just beat the system. Well, we are also finding some of those convicted have set in prison for what they did not do. But, then hey at least thy got a trail before loosing their rights. A principle this country was founded on,.

It is all fine and good until YOU are the one indicted for a crime you did not commit and according to you own statistic that happens 17% of the time.

Both myself and one of my brothers have been charged with a felony (different instances). Neither of us were guilty and proved it in court. My charge was brought by an assistant DA who had recently from CA. I didn't need a jury, the judge gave it the heave ho. The DA who went after my brother had his eye on being a judge. LOL he lost his job after it was all over.

Being charged does not mean your guilty and like it or not

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY

I though another cornerstone of our system was that the RIGHTS of the few were not succeeded by the NEEDS of the many.

If they are actually thought to be dangerous enough to that the court feels they should not have a gun, why are they being released in the first place? Anyone with 2 working brain cells knows a law will not stop them from getting one

There is another story to be considered from these statistics. You will note that they state that only 2 percent actually go to trial. That means that almost one in five or those arrested and charged should not have been chared in the first place (the 17 percent) and overall only two people out of every hundred are ever proven to actually be guilty by an actual trial. The rest are "plea bargained".

Prosecutors, both State and Federal, are eager to bargain for a resolution that does not include a trial. Neither system could possibly handle an individual trial for everything that everyone is charged with. The sheer logistics would choke any system to death in short order. So, the plea bargain process begins. That is where you plead guilty to a lesser charge, and subsequently a lesser sentence if you give up all of your rights to a trial and plead guilty.

Prosecutors will only be as generous as they feel their success will be in actually convicting you on what you are charged with. If the charge is righteous, and they have a pile of irrefutable evidence, you are not going to get much of an offer, and if you don't take it you will be one of the two percent. They are usually pretty sure that they are going to win before they bother with a full blown trial.

On the other hand, if they have little and are not sure of their chances of getting a conviction, they are much more willing to talk and adjust things in return for your guilty plea.

Unfortunately, they are very hesitant to drop the thing entirely. That 17 percent is part of their report card. They would rather have you plead guilty to something, anything, so that they get a result that goes in the "win" column of their report card. Remember Martha Stewart? I don't know if she did any of the things that they initially said that she did, but she eventually plead guilty to "Lying to the FBI". This is a crime that she never would have committed if she had not been investigated by the FBI in the first place. That says to me that they obviously had no legitimate reason to mess with her in the first place, but were unwilling to let it go.

So, in that 83 percent of people who are considered to be the guilty ones, you can see that very, very few actually went to court and had it proven (the 2 percent). They resolved it by striking a deal and pleading guilty to something.

Would anyone plead guilty to something that they didn't do? Of course. It happens every day. Lets say that the Federal or State government has suddenly been inserted into your life with the threat of prison and total loss of your life savings being on the table.

First off, (guilty or not) you are forced to pony up thousands of dollars to hire a lawyer to defend yourself. Yes, some folks with no money get a public defender at no cost to them, but the Public Defender believes in giving you the same level of defense that Police Officers consider the appropriate level of force to use on you. That is the minimum amount necessary.

The process begins to unfold. With a private lawyer the meter just keeps on running and you need to keep feeding it thousand dollar bills. The negotiation process starts. Somewhere in here the Prosecution has made a determination as to how likely it is they can convict you. This determines how low they will go. Rarely will they drop it entirely (the 17 percent) because they want a win, not a loss in their personal statistics. So unless there is absolutely no hope of them convicting you ever. like maybe you were in another State at the time, or they obviously have the wrong guy, they are going to keep the game going and the meter running. They know that everyone has an emotional and financial breaking point (a number of people who were close to Trump can tell you how this works). They know that there will come a time when you have been bled dry financially, your wife has left you, your kids have changed their name, and you will discover that if you actually go to trial the money meter has not even begun to spin. They know at that time if they offer you a much less serious charge to plead guilty to, and a seriously reduced sentence, if any at all, you will be apt to be willing to go before a judge and plead guilty to doing it just to get what is left of your life back. They get one more for their win column.

There are many more than a few of these cases in their 83 percent. The actual number, if known, would probably scare us.

So, to look at these numbers and say "Gee, they are right 83 percent of the time" is just plain wrong. To look at these numbers and say "At least the 83 percent had their day in court" is not accurate either. Only 2 percent of them did.

It is not my intent to be negative about the system or to infer that all people who plead guilty to something are innocent. Not at all. This plea bargain process is necessary for our system to work, and in many cases is a good way for the accused and the accuser to arrive at a realistic disposition of the situation. Prosecutors like to charge high, and defendants like to be charged low. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. It needs to be entered into by officials with good faith intentions, though. If not, it can become a weapon that the government can use against the people.

It is a natural side affect of this situation that some people are going to plead guilty for reasons other than guilt. As we have seen. It can also be used by unscrupulous officials to ruin their political opposition if allowed to go unchecked.
 
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Didn't want to quote the entire previous post, but prosecutors also have the strategy of grossly over charging to coerce guilty pleas. I'm suspicious plea bargained cases.

The concept of INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY is lost on a lot here. There are frequently posts in the lounge discussing some sort of criminal case. Then come the posts from those who want to burn them at the stake before any trial.

But then, eliminating the prohibition on convicted felons who have served their sentence would solve a lot of this nonsense. The problem with having multi-tiered categories of citizenship is the ultimate goal of those in power is to push us all into the bottom tier.
 
Sorry to be a drag on system-bashing, but if you go to the trouble of getting indicted, your are going to be convicted more than 8 of 10 times.

Not a ham sandwich, it seems.

It goes back to the whole notion of either "assumed guilty until proven innocent" or "assumed innocent until proven guilty". I'm rather ancient minded, so I'm not all that dead set against "assumed guilty until proven innocent". But, with that said, let's take into account the American way of doing things.

I've heard of bad attitudes from US court systems and prosecutors, insomuch "throwing charges at people isn't that bad, they are assumed innocent until proven guilty anyway" or "its the adveserial system, I can lob bad charges and it is up to the accused and the system to right my wrongs".

One of the benefits of the "assumed guilty until proven innocent' is that the entire system takes charges and prosecution much more seriously. If you are going to put that stigma and legal weight on a charge, they tend to put more seriousness into actually charging people. "Innocent until proven guilty" tends to lead to the opposite. No hesitation or care for throwing things at the wall, see what sticks.

So, in an American system that is supposedly "innocent until proven guilty", should we not be as light touching as possible with bail and conditions of release? If those indicted are to be set free until trial, should conditions of release be as non restrictive as needed, as to treat the accused as presumed innocent, and only enough rights and conditions to ensure they come to trial and not escape?

Second of all, you seem to be in my old feudal camp. If they are indicted, treat them as guilty until proven otherwise. That is your point, isn't it?
 
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