Electric vehicles...

[smithra_66]

Batteries are not durable devices.

They are disposable. Americans throw batteries away, they don't see them as long term investments.

There are still model T's running today. Are there any batteries from 1915 still good today?

 

[biku324]

First, since turbines never produce rated output the numbers are worthless

Second,
From your article. Note the authors, and who they work for.

Ida Kubiszewski a Cutler J.Cleveland b Peter K.Endres c
a
Gund Institute for Ecological Economics, University of Vermont, 617 Main Street, Burlington, VT 05405, USA
b
Department of Geography and Environment, Boston University, 675 Commonwealth Avenue, Boston, MA 02215, USA
c
JW Great Lakes Wind, LLC, 1900 Superior Avenue, Suite 333, Cleveland, OH 44114-4420, USA

No possibility of bias there.

And if that isn't sufficient, note the cost of electricity in Germany after they instituted Energiewende.
"Renewables" are working so well they're tearing down forests to dig for lignite.

Grid level wind and solar are a scam for rent seekers to cash in on.

Where's your published data?

My daughter drove her Leaf to work again today. No problems. Like Mon-Fri for the past 3 or 4 years.

 

[Kevin J.]

A lot of interesting comments and opinions on this thread so I will add my 3 cents worth (inflation you know).

I see all version of vehicles as options in the future. EV’s are definitely the future for the general public (with or without government mandates) just as smaller, mostly of Japanese made originally, replaced the large gas guzzling vehicles back in the 70’s and 80’s. The transition will be similar IMO.

Trucks will be available in other EV or gas/diesel depending on the usage needs. Think about a F-150 that is basically a commuter vehicle in a lot of cases. These will be an EV while a work truck vehicle like an F-250/350 will still be available in gas/diesel.

There will be a market for both and one will select the “tool” for the job.

Fleet vehicle like local delivery trucks, city buses, and others are perfect candidates for transition to EV. They have mostly known established routes, so charge ranges are known, and return each evening to central location for over night charging.

 

[biku324]

A lot of interesting comments and opinions on this thread so I will add my 3 cents worth (inflation you know).

I see all version of vehicles as options in the future. EV’s are definitely the future for the general public (with or without government mandates) just as smaller, mostly of Japanese made originally, replaced the large gas guzzling vehicles back in the 70’s and 80’s. The transition will be similar IMO.

Trucks will be available in other EV or gas/diesel depending on the usage needs. Think about a F-150 that is basically a commuter vehicle in a lot of cases. These will be an EV while a work truck vehicle like an F-250/350 will still be available in gas/diesel.

There will be a market for both and one will select the “tool” for the job.

Yuou've called it completely!

 

[mtgianni]

What happens when I need to travel 200 miles one way in -20 temperatures and return the same day? I cannot see an EV cutting it or even at zero if the road is blocked for a few hours.

 

[ladder13]

The very fact that a service like this has to exist in order to make EVs practical is indication of their flaw.

Do you really think people are going to sign up for a lifetime insurance program in order to run their car?

Also, EV batteries aren't just like ICE batteries where you can pick them up yourself and put them in easily. They require a teardown of the vehicle and a large-scale install because they are bolted to the subframe (because they have to be so huge and heavy).

Yes, yes, I do think that people would like the battery warranty.

You think VinFast is going to send a battery pack to their customer for a self install?

 

[delcrossv]

Where's your published data?

My daughter drove her Leaf to work again today. No problems. Like Mon-Fri for the past 3 or 4 years.

Couldn't care less about your daughter's Leaf. Glad she likes it.

Here's the cite for my graph above.

Energy intensities, EROIs (energy returned on invested), and energy payback times of electricity generating power plants - ScienceDirect

and

Lessons from technology development for energy and sustainability | MRS Energy & Sustainability | Cambridge Core

There's plenty more where that came from. All published data

Energy prices in euros per kWh
Germany (renewables)
France and Finland (nuclear- Gen.III)
Poland(coal)

 

[smithra_66]

Where's your published data?

My daughter drove her Leaf to work again today. No problems. Like Mon-Fri for the past 3 or 4 years.

My aunt's cousin's gardener drove his electric golf cart today with no problems either.

What's that have to do with the fact that electric is a terrible solution for heavy duty tasks in consumer automobiles?

Like we've said a million times in this thread, one person driving a few miles a day is a not representative of all tasks one must do with a vehicle.

EV simply cannot handle heavy duty tasks like driving long distances, operating in heat and cold, construction, camping or off-grid instances, towing, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Onomea]

It is interesting to me that the topic generates such passion.

If you want one, buy one. If you don't, don't. If you're in CA post 2035 and can't buy a new ICE car, go somewhere else and buy one. (Although not from Ford, I guess.) Or buy used.

(As for government subsidies, the government subsidizes, or encourages behavior through tax law, all the time. An example we used to trot out was the government paying farmers not to grow alfalfa. What else is new?)

I think EV battery issues will be overcome. Batteries in general are so much better than they used to be. I assume EV batteries also will continue to evolve for the better.

 

[smithra_66]

A lot of interesting comments and opinions on this thread so I will add my 3 cents worth (inflation you know).

I see all version of vehicles as options in the future. EV’s are definitely the future for the general public (with or without government mandates) just as smaller, mostly of Japanese made originally, replaced the large gas guzzling vehicles back in the 70’s and 80’s. The transition will be similar IMO.

Trucks will be available in other EV or gas/diesel depending on the usage needs. Think about a F-150 that is basically a commuter vehicle in a lot of cases. These will be an EV while a work truck vehicle like an F-250/350 will still be available in gas/diesel.

There will be a market for both and one will select the “tool” for the job.

Fleet vehicle like local delivery trucks, city buses, and others are perfect candidates for transition to EV. They have mostly known established routes, so charge ranges are known, and return each evening to central location for over night charging.

But why though? if we still have to produce gas because of all the shortcomings of EV, why do you think EV will still continue to be produced? Isn't that expensive to have assembly lines rolling for two different types of vehicles?

Why are we jumping through all these hoops for a technology that has major holes that will never be filled?

 

[delcrossv]

....

Why are we jumping through all these hoops for a technology that has major holes that will never be filled?

I think that's a "follow the money" question. Particularly "subsidy" money.

 

[smithra_66]

I think that's a "follow the money" question. Particularly "subsidy" money.

Right. It's because of environmental and political dogma, not functionality.

That's why EVs are doomed to fail.

 

[Kevin J.]

Just to play devils advocate here, and since it’s a SW gun forum. Couldn’t the transition from revolvers to high capacity semi auto plastic guns be a similar evolution? Revolvers are still available if so choose, and fit a need, but the world has moved to the other option.

 

[delcrossv]

Just to play devils advocate here, and since it’s a SW gun forum. Couldn’t the transition from revolvers to high capacity semi auto plastic guns be a similar evolution? Revolvers are still available if so choose, and fit a need, but the world has moved to the other option.

If EVs went 1000 miles on a charge and recharged in 60 seconds, your analogy would fit.

As things are now, not so much.

 

[biku324]

Couldn't care less about your daughter's Leaf. Glad she likes it.

Here's the cite for my graph above.

Energy intensities, EROIs (energy returned on invested), and energy payback times of electricity generating power plants - ScienceDirect

and

Lessons from technology development for energy and sustainability | MRS Energy & Sustainability | Cambridge Core

There's plenty more where that came from. All published data

Energy prices in euros per kWh
Germany (renewables)
France and Finland (nuclear- Gen.III)
Poland(coal)

Your data covers one part of your post; what does high tax, high population density Geermany have to do with us? And where's the report on them slashing their forests to make electricity?

Germany taxes renewables at roughly 43 cents per kilowatt hour now, down from over 60 cents before the Ukraine War.

 

[biku324]

If EVs went 1000 miles on a charge and recharged in 60 seconds, your analogy would fit.

As things are now, not so much.

Like all gas and diesel cars do now? 1,000 mile range and 60 second refuel?

 

[sigp220.45]

The fear of change is strong in this thread.

Electric vehicles are coming. Your internal combustion engine is going the way of the horse and buggy. Luckily given the demographics of this place, most of us will have already had our key fobs wrestled away by our kids or grandkids before mean old Uncle Sugar has to do it.

I've been driving for 50 years or so, and have had all kinds of cars, trucks, and motorcycles. My favorite of all of those was (brace yourself) this Prius, going to the junkyard after being cruelly murdered by a hail storm.

When we got it, two of our kids were in colleges in different states. This little 50 mpg wonder made it much easier to visit them as often as we could.

When horses gave way to cars, the infrastructure wasn't there, either. Dirt roads, no gas stations, no repair shops. But infrastructure follows.

The tech will improve. Get aboard or don't. It won't matter unless you are 30 years old. My next car (if I get one) will be an EV with all of the self-driving stuff I can afford.

 

[delcrossv]

Like all gas and diesel cars do now? 1,000 mile range and 60 second refuel?

The unstated lemma being that they'd be an IMPROVEMENT that would draw customers. Like plastic semis offer faster reloading, more capacity and lower price. That's what's necessary for the analogy to work.

As they are, EV's aren't an improvement or even a comparable except in some very specific environments. E.G. you're daughter's commute in temperate California.

If EV's offered a significant advantage, everyone would be clamoring to buy them.

Stet?

 

[smithra_66]

Just to play devils advocate here, and since it’s a SW gun forum. Couldn’t the transition from revolvers to high capacity semi auto plastic guns be a similar evolution? Revolvers are still available if so choose, and fit a need, but the world has moved to the other option.

That's not even a good analogy because semi-autos and striker guns actually provide better functionality than revolvers, at least in combat applications.

EVs don't provide anything that ICE can't already do.

So the better gun analogy would probably be something like "caseless" ammo or the 40 S&W, or laser sights. Things people thought were "the future" but in reality did nothing that didn't already exist in better ways from something else.

 

[smithra_66]

The fear of change is strong in this thread.

Electric vehicles are coming. Your internal combustion engine is going the way of the horse and buggy. Luckily given the demographics of this place, most of us will have already had our key fobs wrestled away by our kids or grandkids before mean old Uncle Sugar has to do it.

I've been driving for 50 years or so, and have had all kinds of cars, trucks, and motorcycles. My favorite of all of those was (brace yourself) this Prius, going to the junkyard after being cruelly murdered by a hail storm.

When we got it, two of our kids were in colleges in different states. This little 50 mpg wonder made it much easier to visit them as often as we could.

When horses gave way to cars, the infrastructure wasn't there, either. Dirt roads, no gas stations, no repair shops. But infrastructure follows.

The tech will improve. Get aboard or don't. It won't matter unless you are 30 years old. My next car (if I get one) will be an EV with all of the self-driving stuff I can afford.

I'm relatively young and work in the tech industry. I have no fear of change.

I have fear of change for stupid reasons like "Global Warming" for a product that brings us backward.