Electric vehicles...

[smithra_66]

Not necessarily. Pre-COVID I knew folks here who were seriously considering an electric car and said they would rent a gas vehicle for their few road trips as and when. All other trips involved the electric car going to the airport. Of course, this was before renting a car cost a kidney and your first-born.

But don't you see? The dream of the environmentalists is to get rid of gas cars. If you need gas cars to do heavy duty tasks, how would that ever work?

If EVs can't do everything (and soon), then why would people keep investing in them and producing them?

For them to ever get anything more than niche status, they are going to have to crack 6% sometime

College girls living in the city is a pretty light duty task.

 

[Countrycuz]

I think the main point is," Let the market decide". Folks can buy an EV ( or solar panels) if they want, but not because of government mandates or incentives on my dime.

 

[biku324]

 

[delcrossv]

Well, things change.

You can't possibly fly to the moon or make functional plastic firearms or generate power with windmills. Yet we have and do.

Umm. Flying to the moon- Political stunt, although seems they're looking at a base now some 50 years later.

Plastic firearms- well, not all plastic- at least not with any lifespan

Generate power with windmills- Yep, at efficiencies so low they'll never recover the energy used to build them.

"Can" =/= "should"

 

[SMSgt]

efficiencies so low they'll never recover the energy used to build them

That would apply to just about any form of power generation or transportation.

 

[smithra_66]

I think the main point is," Let the market decide". Folks can buy an EV ( or solar panels) if they want, but not because of government mandates or incentives on my dime.

That would be fantastic. They would likely die on the vine, but this is the way it should be.

Problem is, many are forcing them down our throats, such as the state of California and the people currently running the federal government.

 

[johngalt]

I wonder which has been more efficient - driving my 25 year old Tahoe or changing cars every 3 years.

 

[biku324]

Umm.

1. Flying to the moon- Political stunt, although seems they're looking at a base now some 50 years later..

2. Plastic firearms- well, not all plastic- at least not with any lifespan

3, Generate power with windmills- Yep, at efficiencies so low they'll never recover the energy used to build them.

"Can" =/= "should"

1. The Wildest Moon Landing Conspiracy Theories, Debunked - HISTORY How many technologies do we all use daily that evolved from Apollo missions (hint - you're using one now)?

2. Glock, S&W, etc.

3. Prove it.

An evidence review published in the journal Renewable Energy in 2010, which included data from 119 turbines across 50 sites going back 30 years, concluded that the average windfarm produces 20-25 times more energy during its operational life than was used to construct and install its turbines. It also found that the average "energy payback" of a turbine was 3-6 months. Does building turbines use more energy than they produce? | Wind power | The Guardian

Abstract
This analysis reviews and synthesizes the literature on the net energy return for electric power generation by wind turbines. Energy return on investment (EROI) is the ratio of energy delivered to energy costs. We examine 119 wind turbines from 50 different analyses, ranging in publication date from 1977 to 2007. We extend on previous work by including additional and more recent analyses, distinguishing between important assumptions about system boundaries and methodological approaches, and viewing the EROI as function of power rating. Our survey shows an average EROI for all studies (operational and conceptual) of 25.2 (n = 114; std. dev = 22.3). The average EROI for just the operational studies is 19.8 (n = 60; std. dev = 13.7). This places wind in a favorable position relative to fossil fuels, nuclear, and solar power generation technologies in terms of EROI. Meta-analysis of net energy return for wind power systems - ScienceDirect

The important thing is the ratio of energy output to energy input, known as the energy return on energy invested (EROEI).

 

[JJEH]

I say the government is in over-reach territory.

It is and has been for a while now. I'll say sharpen your quills and get your paper ready, we might have to summon the Sons of Liberty.

 

[Alton]

Have not read this entire thread so unsure if anyone has brought this up but a promising technology is bidirectional charging. Here's an example:

Innovative Electric Vehicle Charger Shows Financial Promise in First Year

Sounds great for a business that provides multiple charging stations. The only issue I can find is if there are brown outs during the day, the business will use your battery power as an uninterruptable power source /UPS. Great until you want to go home and find you do not have enough range to get home.

 

[Onomea]

I'm guessing that EV owners will be able to set some minimum charge to remain. Also, I think the concept for individual owners is to plug in at home, and for EV fleets — Amazon, city buses, etc.— to plug in at night when the fleet is not in use.

 

[Protocall_Design]

Also, a battery can only do so many charge/discharge cycles. After the place you work for wears out your battery running their building, are they going to help you pay for a new one? I seriously doubt it.

 

[ladder13]

VinFast, a Vietnamese car company that will soon build cars/buses batteries here in NC, has a sort of different business model.

They are planning on leasing, monthly, the battery packs to car owners. A sort of never have to worry if your battery dies.
Not an endorsement, just info.


Just looked. For current buyers, free battery replacement for life.


Battery Subscription | VinFast

 

[Onomea]

Also, a battery can only do so many charge/discharge cycles. ..

Hmm... Maybe Nissan knows something we don't?

"...And, as long as the user is utilizing Fermata’s approved charger, Nissan says it will not impact the Leaf’s battery warranty...."

Why bi-directional charging is so important for EV buy-in

 

[Walter Rego]

I retired from Tesla in 2019 and have a lot of opinions regarding the future of EV's but I'd rather not get into a long post about them now.

An electric car would be ideal for the type of driving I do now that I am retired. In fact it would have been ideal for the approximately 25 mile a day round trip commute I used to make daily when working. But I still don't want one. For many owners of EV's, they are a second vehicle and they use the EV where practical but have an ICE vehicle to use where the EV is impractical.

But I'm like GA 1911. I have a practical AWD SUV for it's utility value but when I decided I wanted a second car it was for fun. So I bought a Jaguar F Type R that gets crummy gas mileage and costs 2X what a Tesla would have. I won't live long enough to find out whether or not man made global warming is real and I don't care. I want to have fun and thumb my nose at those who seek to tell me what I have to buy.

 

[Onomea]

Walter, I looked up the Jaguar F Type R. That's one gorgeous car!

Have fun!

 

[delcrossv]

efficiencies so low they'll never recover the energy used to build them

That would apply to just about any form of power generation or transportation.

Orly?

Energy returned on energy invested:

 

[delcrossv]

...1. Abstract
This analysis reviews and synthesizes the literature on the net energy return for electric power generation by wind turbines. Energy return on investment (EROI) is the ratio of energy delivered to energy costs. We examine 119 wind turbines from 50 different analyses, ranging in publication date from 1977 to 2007. We extend on previous work by including additional and more recent analyses, distinguishing between important assumptions about system boundaries and methodological approaches, and viewing the EROI as function of power rating. Our survey shows an average EROI for all studies (operational and conceptual) of 25.2 (n = 114; std. dev = 22.3). The average EROI for just the operational studies is 19.8 (n = 60; std. dev = 13.7). This places wind in a favorable position relative to fossil fuels, nuclear, and solar power generation technologies in terms of EROI.[/I] Meta-analysis of net energy return for wind power systems - ScienceDirect

The important thing is the ratio of energy output to energy input, known as the energy return on energy invested (EROEI).

First, since turbines never produce rated output the numbers are worthless

Second,
From your article. Note the authors, and who they work for.

Ida Kubiszewski a Cutler J.Cleveland b Peter K.Endres c
a
Gund Institute for Ecological Economics, University of Vermont, 617 Main Street, Burlington, VT 05405, USA
b
Department of Geography and Environment, Boston University, 675 Commonwealth Avenue, Boston, MA 02215, USA
c
JW Great Lakes Wind, LLC, 1900 Superior Avenue, Suite 333, Cleveland, OH 44114-4420, USA

No possibility of bias there.

And if that isn't sufficient, note the cost of electricity in Germany after they instituted Energiewende.
"Renewables" are working so well they're tearing down forests to dig for lignite.

Grid level wind and solar are a scam for rent seekers to cash in on.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

Glad that I am so close to not really needing to drive that often.

 

[smithra_66]

VinFast, a Vietnamese car company that will soon build cars/buses batteries here in NC, has a sort of different business model.

They are planning on leasing, monthly, the battery packs to car owners. A sort of never have to worry if your battery dies.
Not an endorsement, just info.


Just looked. For current buyers, free battery replacement for life.


Battery Subscription | VinFast

The very fact that a service like this has to exist in order to make EVs practical is indication of their flaw.

Do you really think people are going to sign up for a lifetime insurance program in order to run their car?

Also, EV batteries aren't just like ICE batteries where you can pick them up yourself and put them in easily. They require a teardown of the vehicle and a large-scale install because they are bolted to the subframe (because they have to be so huge and heavy).