LGS had a J-Frame with no model on it?

[firefighterjohn]

Wanted to ask a question to the J-frame experts. I just got back from my LGS and they just had a small 5-shot blue .38 J-frame come in with a < 2" barrel in great shape. I looked it over closely but didn't see any model numbers listed, unlike the 37 Airweight I just bought.

It was very clean, pinned barrel (not recessed...got an education from "two-bit cowboy" on my 37 Airweight...lol), it had the flat cylinder latch with serial number on the butt of 1819nn (I'm hiding last 2 digits).

I think it's a Model 36 but not sure. It's in better shape than the 37 Airweight I just took home, but it looks identical to my 37.

Any ideas what model it could be and it's DOB based on the serial #? The guy at the LGS didn't know either but I'll find out tomorrow when I go back in. I had them hold it for me.

Thanks for your help...

Sorry if I posted this in the wrong forum since it might be older than 1961?

 

[pawncop]

More than likely it is a Chiefs Special. Model numbers were not available until after 1957.

 

[two-bit cowboy]

John,

S&W introduced the Chiefs Special in 1950. Through about May '54 the Chiefs were built on a 5-screw frame (four on the side plate and one in front of the trigger guard).

The 4-screw frame deleted the trigger guard screw, made the trigger guard an oval instead of round, and lengthened the grip frame.

The 3-screw frame deleted the top side plate screw.

Model numbers began in September 1958 at around serial number 126xxx for the Model 36, and 129xxx for the Model 37.

At serial number 1819xx it should have a model number. There were some Chiefs Special Airweights like your Model 37 near that serial number range that made it out of the factory without a model number stamped on the frame, but I've not heard of any carbon steel Chiefs in that range like that.

Look forward to hearing more after you have another look tomorrow.

 

[firefighterjohn]

More than likely it is a Chiefs Special. Model numbers were not available until after 1957.

Thanks pawncop, I wasn't sure. I didn't have my reading glasses with me to read what was stamped on the frame under the crane.

If it is a Chiefs Special that would be the first one for me. Cool.

 

[firefighterjohn]

John,

S&W introduced the Chiefs Special in 1950. Through about May '54 the Chiefs were built on a 5-screw frame (four on the side plate and one in front of the trigger guard).

The 4-screw frame deleted the trigger guard screw, made the trigger guard an oval instead of round, and lengthened the grip frame.

The 3-screw frame deleted the top side plate screw.

Model numbers began in September 1958 at around serial number 126xxx.

At serial number 1819xx it should have a model number. There were some Chiefs Special Airweights like your Model 37 near that serial number range that made it out of the factory without a model number stamped on the frame, but I've not heard of any carbon steel Chiefs in that range like that.

Look forward to hearing more after you have another look tomorrow.

Wow, now that's quick service two-bit cowboy! Thank you for all the info, I will print your post and take it with me tomorrow...and take my glasses with me too.

Should I take a magnet with me tomorrow to know for sure which model it might be?

They didn't have it priced yet either so it JUST came into the LGS.

It was gun only, no box or paperwork but it was cleaner than the 37 Airweight I just got too.

Thanks again two-bit cowboy!

 

[Engine49guy]

First Check if the barrel says .38 S&W or .38 S&W Special, they are two different rounds.

The earliest Chiefs (and most sought by collectors) are the early half penny front sight version.
There was a brief change to a smooth ramp then to the newer serrated ramp style.
Another difference is that the early Chiefs have a round trigger guard that was later elongated to the egg shape.
The early versions also have a slightly shorter grip frame so newer wood stocks will overhang the heel.
There were other internal changes but if it's a Baby Chief with 4 or 5 screw frame and priced reasonably it's a buy on sight gun.

 

[JP@AK]

The earliest Chiefs (and most sought by collectors) are the early half penny front sight version.

A good post. What you failed to mention was that the very earliest "Baby Chiefs Special" also had a conventional thumbpiece. It was quickly replaced with the first style flat latch, and then restored to the Chiefs Special in 1966.

 

[firefighterjohn]

Thanks Engine49guy for your info. I'll write another post to everyone since I couldn't wait until tomorrow to go back and find out more info about it.

 

[firefighterjohn]

So, I went back to give it a closer look, I couldn't wait to tomorrow with all of things you guys posted..."I gots to know!"

- The serial number is 5 digits, not 6: It is 1819n NOT 1819nn
- It is a steel gun; small magnet stuck
- It says .38 S&W SPL; as Engine49Guy asked
- It has 5 screws and the trigger guard is round; as two-bit cowboy explained
- It has some other numbers on the frame under the cylinder crane: looks like a 4 up higher with the number 6920n below it
- It has Diamond stocks with silver S&W medallion at the top
- It has a long gradually raising front ramp sight.

It was definitely heavier than my 37 Airweight.

Thanks for all of your guys help. So, with the 5 digit serial number, how much older might it be?

 

[firefighterjohn]

...There were other internal changes but if it's a Baby Chief with 4 or 5 screw frame and priced reasonably it's a buy on sight gun.

LOL. Didn't know if it's a Baby Chief or not but it was a 5 screw. I like you philosophy...buy it on sight.

I did; put money down on it!

 

[two-bit cowboy]

Terrific!

That is a 5-screw (baby) Chiefs Special.

In all likelihood that ramp front sight is serrated.

There's a good chance it shipped in October/November 1952, that's only two years after the first one was made (October 24, 1950).

Very cool. Congrats.

 

[Engine49guy]

When you get it home remove the stocks to first confirm they number to the gun,
Next closely examine the grip medallions, they are normally nickel coated brass but in the Korean war years it changed briefly to plastic then raw steel medallions then back to nickel coated brass around the wars end in 53.
My suspicion is yours will be raw steel which makes it even more interesting.
Btw when the stocks are off compare them to your Model 37 stocks u will c they are about 1/4 shorter in the heel.
Perhaps someone will post a link to the old thread where we detailed its evolution from service stock pre war latch to magnas then showing the several flat latch evolution.

 

[firefighterjohn]

Terrific!

That is a 5-screw (baby) Chiefs Special.

In all likelihood that ramp front sight is serrated.

There's a good chance it shipped in October/November 1952, that's only two years after the first one was made (October 24, 1950).

Very cool. Congrats.

Thanks two-bit cowboy. I just had to look for some of the things you guys mentioned.

Yes, the front sight is serrated.

Why is it called Baby Chief Special?

 

[firefighterjohn]

When you get it home remove the stocks to first confirm they number to the gun,
Next closely examine the grip medallions, they are normally nickel coated brass but in the Korean war years it changed briefly to plastic then raw steel medallions then back to nickel coated brass around the wars end in 53.
My suspicion is yours will be raw steel which makes it even more interesting.
Btw when the stocks are off compare them to your Model 37 stocks u will c they are about 1/4 shorter in the heel.
Perhaps someone will post a link to the old thread where we detailed its evolution from service stock pre war latch to magnas then showing the several flat latch evolution.

I definitely will remove the stocks to compare numbers. So should I try a small magnet test to the medallions too?

Thanks for all the great info!

 

[s&wchad]

Why is it called Baby Chief Special?

It's called Baby Chief by collectors because it has a smaller round trigger guard and shorter grip frame, compared to later guns. Both I and J frames had the trigger guard enlarged and the grip frame extended in 1953.

How much are they asking? Condition??

 

[steelslaver]

On the pre model guns the numbers in they yoke cut out were assembly fitter numbers used to keep track of the frame as it went through the processes.

 

[jcelect]

Why is it called Baby Chief Special?

There was an I frame model called the Terrier chambered in 38S&W (not Special). S&W wanted to chamber this model in 38 S&W Spl but the cylinder window and cylinder was too short! They produce a new forging with the longer cylinder window but all other dim. were from the I frame! This gun was not a true I frame and the J frame had not been introduced yet. Collectors, being what we are, wanted to put this gun in its own category. Hence the term "Baby Chief's Special"!
Our resident Chief's Special guru, Two Bit Cowboy, can give you dates and serial number ranges for all of the above! Welcome to the confuzzzzzing world of I and J frame guns!
jcelect

 

[firefighterjohn]

It's called Baby Chief by collectors because it has a smaller round trigger guard and shorter grip frame, compared to later guns. Both I and J frames had the trigger guard enlarged and the grip frame extended in 1953.

How much are they asking? Condition??

Thanks for the info s&wchad about the Baby Chief. They put a price of $630 OTD and I thought that was a decent price based on it's condition. It has a faint turn line but no scratches or other marks, the bluing is excellent, and bore/cylinders are very shiny. It locks up great on all cylinders and no push off.

I did some looking on several sites and I think I got a decent deal for one that old and in great condition even without the box or paperwork. Regardless it was worth it to me and I knew it wouldn't have lasted long on the shelf.

 

[firefighterjohn]

There was an I frame model called the Terrier chambered in 38S&W (not Special). S&W wanted to chamber this model in 38 S&W Spl but the cylinder window and cylinder was too short! They produce a new forging with the longer cylinder window but all other dim. were from the I frame! This gun was not a true I frame and the J frame had not been introduced yet. Collectors, being what we are, wanted to put this gun in its own category. Hence the term "Baby Chief's Special"!
Our resident Chief's Special guru, Two Bit Cowboy, can give you dates and serial number ranges for all of the above! Welcome to the confuzzzzzing world of I and J frame guns!
jcelect

Thanks for the history jcelect. I tried finding out some of that info but I couldn't find anything nearly that detailed. I'm new to the older J frames and this has been a learning experience.

 

[JP@AK]

I would make one correction to jcelect's post.

This gun was not a true I frame and the J frame had not been introduced yet.

The Baby Chiefs Special WAS the first J frame. As he mentioned, it has most of the dimensions of the I frame, but with a longer cylinder window. In 1953, both the I and J frames received the new grip frame length.