Poor decision-making generally leads to poor outcomes. Chasing an armed thief while unarmed is a poor decision which led, in this case, to a bad outcome regardless of carry method.
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Man killed with own gun
- Thread starter rh73
- Start date
pantannojack
US Veteran
When I carry kidney IWB I watch my strong side constantly, I trail my strong arm low and behind. I turn my heavy side away from people when they come near. I enforce the one arms length buffer not only to avoid another's breath. And I remember from "The French Connection" how Popeye Doyle protected his armament.
I've spotted people conceal carrying before as well. It's often not the gun, it's the spring steel clip on the belt, the belt loops for a holster.
More often and from greater distance, it's the guy looking and pulling his short down when he gets out of the vehicle, and then 2-3 more times as he walks across the parking lot. Those are more often than not guys new to concealed carry who are very self conscious about carrying a gun.
There are also the wanna be operators doing a slow scan of their AO while wearing a tactical logo ball cap and a gun, survival or tactical logo tee shirt.
Then there are the plain old unseasonably warmly dressed for the weather folks who dress that way so they can have a cover garment for a more often than not full sized pistol and a pair of spare magazines.
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Then you have some experienced guys who also telegraph they are carrying a gun:
There's a balance in here somewhere that we each have to find, to our individual comfort level, recognizing there are always compromises.
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Personally, I don't carry a full size duty pistol and a pair of 17 round magazines because it is hard to conceal. It's carrying for an incredibly low probability scenario within an already low probability event that you'll ever need to rely on a defensive hand gun, and a much lower probability you'll ever need to actually fire it.
95% of the time drawing the gun or starting to draw the gun is sufficient to end an imminent threat. Getting shot sucks and the assailant goes off in search of a softer target.
Half the time when the gun has to be fired, and the assailant is hit, it ends the assault. Again, getting shot sucks, and getting shot twice sucks twice as much. Plus any doubt in the assailants mind that you won't shoot has evaporated and not wanting to get shot again he flees or (rarely) surrenders. That's for any handgun, without regard to "stopping power", "one shot stops" or FBI penetration metrics.
Even when multiple shots are required, instances where more than 5 shots are required in an honest to goodness armed citizen self defense shoot are incredibly rare.
Now, I'm not arguing that we don't need or have a right to high capacity magazines. I am suggesting there is a down side to going over board.
The downside of going over board is the decreased ability to keep it all concealed.
So, you have to balance the highly improbable multiple assailant requiring multiple high capacity magazines scenario, with the number of potential issues that can result when someone spots you conceal carrying.
I got made once in an elevator carrying a sub compact pistol. I was in a dress shirt with my jacket off and my shirt tucked in over my tuckable IWB holster. A lady in the elevator with me saw the spring steel clip over my belt. Why? Who knows? Women check men out too is the working theory.
She asked me what the clip was for, and telling her it was a gun wasn't a great idea as while I was legally carrying it, concealed carry wasn't common, and "man with a gun" complaints were. Being quick on my feet, I told her it was for my TENS unit. I've never owned a TENS unit but I had a vague idea what they were and that they involve a small box on the waistline.
We then had a nice elevator conversation about back pain. Had I been carrying a duty sized pistol the almost inevitable printing would not have made that deflection possible.
This.
I'm retired LEO. Total time carrying concealed off duty and retired, fifty years. As far as I know no one has ever noticed my weapon. I shoot regularly with nine other officers and agents, we all live in the same community.
All of us carry to some extent or another. We all made a living looking for printing. Even when we get together for a range day you can't see what others are carrying on their person, and they are. Most of us being geezers go small and light. We all agree surprise is to your advantage.
Personally I can't understand why so many hobbyist owners carry honkin' huge pistols loaded with RDS, flashlights and such. It's like a red flag hanging off your butt. While not open it's also far from concealed.
An interesting switch of the topic, Sgt B, and I like it.
That is ever so true and thank you for that. I can't tell you how many times friends have told me that they knew I was carrying a gun but couldn't figure out where it was. I even had one friend, albeit he's a stupid one, who frisked me once from behind. He still failed to find a weapon. And THAT, my friends, is the point of concealed carry.
It is a sad commentary, I guess, that a dirtbag killed a good guy and we're focused on the good guy's carry method but this is the forum:
Here, we discuss such matters to learn everything we can on this subject.
Too much TV causes that; people think it's tacticool........
That is ever so true and thank you for that. I can't tell you how many times friends have told me that they knew I was carrying a gun but couldn't figure out where it was. I even had one friend, albeit he's a stupid one, who frisked me once from behind. He still failed to find a weapon. And THAT, my friends, is the point of concealed carry.
It is a sad commentary, I guess, that a dirtbag killed a good guy and we're focused on the good guy's carry method but this is the forum:
Here, we discuss such matters to learn everything we can on this subject.
Too much TV causes that; people think it's tacticool........
Banjo 10-79
Member
I look at it as more of debriefing than a gotcha moment. As a retired copper I'm glad I know longer am forced to "open carry" to make a living. It was pounded into my thick skull that there is always a gun on every calm for service, the one in your own holster. It's a free country and adults are allowed to make their own decisions. I take no joy to learn about someone dying at the hands of a feral human. For myself I choose to not tip my hand. Murphy is always out there and he seems to visit at the least opportune moments.
My sentiments exactly.
tajada
BANNED Scammer !! SCAMMER !! SCAMMER !! SCAMMER !!
Open carry is not for everyone and that includes LEO, because we have seen their gun snatched one too many times.
Banjo 10-79
Member
True indeed so why tempt fate?
Banjo 10-79
Member
Exactly why tempt fate
Exactly. And just what kind of 17 year old kid sees an armed man and has as his first thought that he's going to steal his gun? Were any of us thinking like that at age 17?
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtSmfws0_To[/ame]
kbm6893
Member
People who do this have been bred to be this way. I'm sure this kid has been in and out of trouble since he was about 12, has been surrounded by like minded people his own life, and is simply following his destiny of being a low life criminal for his entire worthless, paid for by the tax payer, existence.
These people exist. They freely walk among us. They are multiplying. Conduct yourselves accordingly.
Banjo 10-79
Member
He just wanted to do "hood rat stuff with his friend's"
mikeruns
Member
One word…yep
Don't ascribe too much forethought to crime committed by the young person at high risk for inappropriate behavior. He likely gave more thought to his aspiration to make a doughnut purchase.
kbm6893
Member
I agree. There was no forethought. Just a feral animal who saw something he wanted and took it, without a second's thought to the consequences.
Something tells me his teacher at school won't miss him, nor will the entire faculty of that school, and there's no boss to miss him so he's got that covered.
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I always cringe when I see someone open carrying with a non retention holster in a public store or similar. Last time was an older gentleman with a Glock in a Glock open holster in a grocery store. He seemed rather feeble. I really doubt he could put up much of a fight over the pistol if it came to it.
I've told inquisitive people that the bulge under my shirt is a colostomy bag. That pretty much puts a lid on the conversation.
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