Concealed Carry/Mass Shooter Thoughts

[SGT ROCK 11B]

From the Hillside Strangler case. Hillside Strangler - Wikipedia

On November 29, 1977, police found the body of 18-year-old Lauren Rae Wagner, a business student who lived with her parents in the San Fernando Valley, in the hills around Los Angeles's Mount Washington. She had ligature marks on her neck, ankles, and wrists. There were also burn marks on her hands indicating she was tortured. Lauren's parents had expected her to come home before midnight, and the next morning, when they found her car parked across the street with the door ajar, her father questioned the neighbors.

He found that the woman who lived in the house where Lauren's car had been parked saw her abduction. This woman stated that she saw two men: one was tall and young, the other one was older and shorter with bushy hair. She also stated that she heard Wagner cry out "You won't get away with this!" during her abduction.

The woman witness never called the Police.

 

[Pisgah]

You neglect the fact that these mass shootings almost all end the instant an armed defender appears. Some of the shooters kill themselves; all seem effective only when operating against terrified, unarmed prey.

I will take an active mass shooter on regardless of how he, she or it may be armed.

 

[BSA1]

"Suppressive fire ??" In a large gathering of people??
The phrase " every fired bullet has a lawyer attached to it " comes immediately to mind.
What quality of defense attorneys will the value of your house and retirement assets buy to keep you out of prison if you hit innocent bystanders?
And then there will be the years of civil suits.

Research Pulse Nightclub shooting in Orlando, Florida.

Briefly 49 people were killed and another 58 injured. The shooting started around 2:00 am and it wasn't until 5:00 am that the police breached the wall of building with a armored car, shot and killed the shooter.

The police responded fairly quickly and engaged in a gunbattle with the shooter. Then the police retreated and delayed for around THREE HOURS before making entry and killed the shooter.

THREE HOURS!

What do you suppose the shooter was doing during that time? Reports are he barricaded himself with hostages. A large number of people were trapped in the club. Could engaging the shooter after the Police retreated made a difference saving lives?

Fear of lawsuits does not figure in my defensive plans when in public. It will be hard for me to rationalize knowing someone(s) I could have saved died because I was afraid of being sued.

 

[pharmer]

Research Pulse Nightclub shooting in Orlando, Florida. Briefly 49 people were killed and another 58 injured. The shooting started around 2:00 am and it wasn't until 5:00 am that the police breached the wall of building with a armored car, shot and killed the shooter.
The police responded fairly quickly and engaged in a gunbattle with the shooter. Then the police retreated and delayed for around THREE HOURS before making entry and killed the shooter. THREE HOURS!

That was out of the papers within days. Zero follow up. The truth about that one is more ugly than anyone knows. Joe

 

[rwsmith]

Yes, it's wise...

....to re-evaluate the possible scenarios every once in a while. Going up against an AR in anything but a 'right next to them' when you are armed with a pistol ain't smart. My first priority is to get out or get cover.

 

[biku324]

Spot on!

I also have an issue with LEO Retirees not carrying under LEOSA. The PD I retired from, according to the Rangemasters. Say most retirees do not make it pass the second or third qualification.

I'm retired LEO and never do LEOSA - I pay for a standard CCL.

 

[jbull380]

I've notice that there are bazillions of web pages, groups, platforms, videos and forums on the internet that discuss, buy, sell, evaluate guns, gear and ammo. But in comparison almost nothing on training. There are millions of new gun owners out there since 2020. Lots of unskilled untrained gun owners. I'm constantly pushing training. If we spent a quarter of the time, money and energy on training as we did stuff then we'd have something to talk about right there. Train!

 

[biku324]

^^^^Complete with 'legal aspects.'

 

[Bald1]

Up until 2017 I believed my 5 round .38 Special Snubbie was all the gun I needed. Then a nearby mass workplace shooting and followed by a mental case pointing a rifle at passing cars a couple of weeks later made me realize the snubbie was not up to either incident. I reevaluated and upgraded to a SIG P239 9mm then a few months later to my current edc the Beretta 92.

While I own several 1911's I do not believe it gives me a good weight vs. ammo capacity. Only 8 rounds of 45 vs. 16 rounds in the 92 with approximately the same weight of gun.

We know from the previous mass shootings police response is slow and some departments response is disorganized. We know even when a Officer is present he may not intervene. (The Coward of Broward). We know even when multiple armed officers are present they may not intervene for a long time period. (Las Vegas).

So my assumption is I am on my own.

We do know that often when the shooter meets resistance they stop their attack and some choose suicide. So even non-lethal hits may cause the attacker to stop.

My main tactic is defense in a position that offers some cover or concealment. My high capacity 9mm allows me to use suppressive fire allowing people time to escape. With a spare magazine I have over 30 rounds immediately available to me.

Whether I would change my position to be able to take out the shooter is something I might do but it just depends on the location and circumstances.

"Pocket Carry" seems to be big fad at the moment with people bragging about carrying a small J-Frame revolver or .380 or 9mm semiautomatic in their front pant pocket. Both guns have small ammunition capacity, typically 5 or 6 rounds with no reload or spare magazine. I can't help but wonder if they can hit a man size target past 21 feet with a small gun with small sights or if they even practice regularly.

Out of long habit I am always evaluating the environment I am in. I check out the parking lot, the front of the business, the inside of the business, the people inside, defensive positions and the parking lot when I leave the store. I drive very defensively to try to avoid road rage.

I don't think people are "bragging". At least I'm not. My pocket carry is a P365. With 11 rds and 1 reload that's 21rds. If I can't accomplish my objective with 21rds an extra 10 probably won't help. As far as accuracy goes I practice at 50 yds on 12x24 steel silhouettes I routinely go 9 of 10 and sometimes 10 of 10. Pocket sized guns are a viable option.

 

[URIT]

I'm not sure what I'd do with an active shooter using an AR in a public place.

I'd be outraged! I'd want to terminate the threat!

I'm a survivalist, but my years of police training and personal tendency to run toward trouble might just get me in over my head.

I could become a media villain while the shooter becomes the next media darling who's family gets a huge financial award from the community.

 

[old tanker]

...The woman witness never called the Police.

The name Kitty Genovese ring a bell? Whole damn apartment block heard her screaming for help and did nothing. One guy even told the police he had to turn up his TV to drown out the "noise." At the time, 1964, many were appalled by the excuse most gave, "I didn't want to get involved."

Murder of Kitty Genovese - Wikipedia

 

[BSA1]

I don't think people are "bragging". At least I'm not. My pocket carry is a P365. With 11 rds and 1 reload that's 21rds. If I can't accomplish my objective with 21rds an extra 10 probably won't help. As far as accuracy goes I practice at 50 yds on 12x24 steel silhouettes I routinely go 9 of 10 and sometimes 10 of 10. Pocket sized guns are a viable option.

Ever think you are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[max503]

I have a serious problem with the fact that only about 5 to 8 percent of CCW permit holders actually DO have their gun on them when out in public where they might be able to stop a criminal if needed.
CARRY YOUR DAMNED GUNS, people !

I didn't know the percentage was that low. But it makes sense. Most people aren't gun savvy. I helped a co-worker get her CC permit. At the range, she tried to load magazines with the bullet backwards, primer facing front.

 

[five 0]

Spot on!

I also have an issue with LEO Retirees not carrying under LEOSA. The PD I retired from, according to the Rangemasters. Say most retirees do not make it pass the second or third qualification.

.
My department is just the opposite. Our range officers say the retired guys shoot better than most of the new guys that are coming on or have a couple of years on the department.

 

[Bald1]

I'm not sure what I'd do with an active shooter using an AR in a public place.

I'd be outraged! I'd want to terminate the threat!

I'm a survivalist, but my years of police training and personal tendency to run toward trouble might just get me in over my head.

I could become a media villain while the shooter becomes the next media darling who's family gets a huge financial award from the community.

U and I have the same mindset. I think my anger would overtake my fear and rational judgment. Especially if I had loved ones with me. I've always believed the best way to handle a problem is to eliminate it. But like you said………..

 

[Richard Simmons]

How many mass shooters in say the last 10 years were actually wearing body armor? The mall shooter in Allen, TX was reported to be wearing a "tactical vest" which is not by itself body armor. I'd wager that most of these murderers that are so attired are carrying magazines in their vests and not plate carriers with ballistic panels.

 

[Bald1]

Ever think you are the exception rather than the rule.

Nah, I'm not special. I just think people do the best they can with what they have. You are correct that the bad Gus have evolved. But I just don't think it's practical to lug around enough ordnance for any occasion. I'm a big guy 6'2" 230lbs. I don't want to carry and try to conceal a duty size weapon and reload. Right or wrong I think people carry what they can and hope for the best. And hopefully that doesn't bite them in the butt.

 

[Harmonica]

Their was crime but you just did not realize it. That is why after ASVAB some people are grunts, some are cooks and some are Military Police.

I have seen and prevented numerous Felonies when I was off duty and or on Vacation as a LEO.

numerous?? like how many???!! where were you? in Crime City USA?
..vacation?! what types of crimes?
..sure, sure --there is crime--but I never witnessed any/etc = so, the point is, there is very, very little chance any non-LEO will have to use their firearm

 

[Harmonica]

...just like I said--it is very dynamic:
1- police were already at the mall
2 - the shooter was dressed in ''LEO'' type outfit/gear --like the Norway shooter
-that's another thing to think about: what if the shooter has ''POLICE'' on their clothing?

 

[Smoke]

I'm retired LEO and never do LEOSA - I pay for a standard CCL.

I'm not a big fan of LEOSA but I am cheap. So I have to ask if you can carry for free why don't you?

The name Kitty Genovese ring a bell? Whole damn apartment block heard her screaming for help and did nothing. One guy even told the police he had to turn up his TV to drown out the "noise." At the time, 1964, many were appalled by the excuse most gave, "I didn't want to get involved."

Murder of Kitty Genovese - Wikipedia

That story has actually been pretty thoroughly debunked. The tennants of Kew Gardens actually chased the killer off once and called the police numerous times. One of them was actually holding Kitty Genovese when she died.

How the False Genovese Murder Story Went Viral -- Science of Us