The 10mm Fraud

[Echo40]

I think that sometimes care less about the actual effectiveness of ammo and more about how high the numbers go on paper, hence why so many opt for lightweight for caliber bullets eventhough they typically don't penetrate as deeply as heavier loads. They don't care if it only penetrates 10" in Ballistics Gel, they only care that it travels at 1300+fps and hits for 500+ft-lbs of energy.

Let's face it, most of the people who purchase a 10mm Auto Pistol don't actually need that kind of power because they don't live in nor do they travel through the wilderness, they just like it because it's the most powerful semiautomatic pistol which can readily be purchased at an affordable price.

I used to carry .380 ACP and felt adequately armed with it, right up until wild predatory animals including hogs started boldly venturing out of the woods surrounding my residential area, showing little fear for man, that's when I started carrying .40 S&W.
Some say that .40 S&W is inadequate for defense against wild predatory animals, but seeing as the biggest animal we have hear are Black Bears and Fish & Game Wardens as well as Park Rangers have been armed with .40 S&W pistols since the mid-90s, I'd say it's fine.

 

[LVSteve]

Starting out and with good instruction, initially they were fine, but it did not take long before they would tire, lose focus on fundamentals and then malfunctions would happen. That was with 2 hands.

With 1 hand, using the heavy loads, it was terrible. I was essentially trying to see if they could shoot the load sitting on their butt, one handed, in an awkward position. They had a very hard time controlling the pistols, and it was obvious that this was not a good load for them.

After a good bit of T&E, I came to the sweet spot of a 200 grain bullet at 1150 FPS. Using a proper 2-handed grip, the average shooter, with a little practice could make fast, repeated shots/hits on target.

Using a 1handed grip, while not blazing fast as far as time between shots (as compared to a 2 handed grip), they were able to control the gun and still have a reliable platform.

Since the ammo was not designed for me, but for the consumer who may be a guy going to Montana, Idaho, Wyoming or Alaska, and wants a gun for bear protection, or is a handgun hunter, the 1150 FPS with a 200 grain hardcast was the Goldilocks spot of accuracy, reliability, and speed.

There is always a sort of "tipping over point" and for me, I noted that I could put more rounds into an A zone in 2 seconds with the 1150 FPS load than I could with the 1200 FPS load. I might be able to get the same amount of shots (sometimes) off in the same 2 seconds, but the accuracy was just not comparable.

Oh dear. You do know that bringing real world considerations to an ammo discussion is not the way to make friends and influence people. Ammo wars are only to be fought on paper, in a gel block, and at the range with no distractions. This real world stuff just doesn't cut it in these threads.

 

[Ethang]

Quite a few 10mm pistols are reported to fire 40 S&W ammo just fine...

Regards!

shhhhh...don't say this out loud...

 

[Ethang]

If you roll your own 10mm can be anything you want it to be (within reason of course).

I like that my 10mm identifies as a 44 magnum...

 

[SweetMK]

I like that my 10mm identifies as a 44 magnum...

My 10mm identifies as a women's volleyball player,,

AND,, WOW can she SPIKE!!

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I read all the posts in the thread. I think "fraud" to describe current 10 mm Auto loads is a bit harsh, but as with many other hotter calibers it would be nice if the manufacturers would state real-world velocities. If this were to occur people could make up their minds as to whether a 180 gr at 900 fps (.40 S & W) is worth the difference from 1050 fps. But if you have a 10 mm pistol, a .40 S & W is not going to fit and function. Maybe have one of each.

For kicks and giggles. I ran a whole magazine of 40 S&W through my 1006........It fired-ejected and loaded every round.

 

[Gamecock]

We have been seeing this same deal with 38 Super for many years, being factory loaded equivalent to 9mm, or only slightly higher.

 

[T. McIntyre]

Oh dear. You do know that bringing real world considerations to an ammo discussion is not the way to make friends and influence people. Ammo wars are only to be fought on paper, in a gel block, and at the range with no distractions. This real world stuff just doesn't cut it in these threads.

Grin.

I know.

The fact is that I am and always have been an outdoorsman. So, when this venture was started, I had this in mind. One of the goals was to create ammo that could be used both in the fields and for carry use, as the situation dictated.

One other thing was that after personally listening to people, and reading about guys who buy 20 round boxes of ammo, then only shooting 4 or 5 rounds as their accuracy/reliability test, I decided to go the opposite route.

I decided to offer the ammo in 100 round packages and include the shipping. That way the consumer has a very good idea if the load is reliable, plus be able to adjust their sights if it was needed.

I figure the shooter can at the very least fire 50-60 rounds or so, and have plenty left over to load his pistol, as well as a spare magazine. Plus chances are they will discover that the "bulk purchase" concept is really a better deal, versus 20 round boxes.

It is a lot more work on my part, but I think it is a better idea.

As far as caliber wars go, for loads such as a 250 grain +P 45 ACP or a 200 grain 10mm, as far as I am concerned, since they both penetrate in feet rather than inches, I really don't think it makes a bit of difference.

Find what gun you like and perform best with, practice with it and go have fun in whatever activity you choose.

 

[T. McIntyre]

Quite a few 10mm pistols are reported to fire 40 S&W ammo just fine...

Regards!

I had a Gen 3 G 20 and it ran .40 ammo with zero issues. The newer Gen 5 is the same. I don't make a habit of it, but I have never had a single problem.

There was a time when I ended up with a good bit of .40 ammo and did not have a .40. I was shooting USPSA matches, and decided to shoot the ammo through the G20.3 until I used it all up. Worked fine. Then I went back to my G21 and 1911s.

 

[ispcapt]

As with the original intent of the FBI when the 10mm was first issued there was a huge cry from all the folks used to 9mm and .38 special so....the 10mm was downloaded seriously from its potential that could and does compete with the .357. .

Actually no. The 10mm was not issued and then downloaded. It's all documented in National Archives files. John Hall was one of the lead players in the FBI going to 10mm.
First the FBI set their performance standards. This was over a year before any 10mm was ever adopted or issued. The full power 10mm far exceeded the penetration limits the BU set. They found by reducing the load to what was called 10 mm Lite it would fall within their penetration standards.
After developing the 10mm Lite the FTU left the decision to the director. FTU recommended either .45 ACP or 10mm Lite. The decision was made to go with the 10mm because they felt the .45 had been developed and performed as far as it was going to go. The 10mm was new and they felt there was the potential for further performance enhancement.
After the director chose the 10mm Lite then the BU put out a request for quote and set the standards for the firearm they desired. The RFQ is public record. In the RFQ is specifically mentions the performance of the 10mm Lite being able to operate in the submitted guns. Then after over a year of all this the S&W 10 was selected.
Then guns were purchased and issued. The 10mm Lite was the issued ammo then.
All that BS about the full power 10mm being too much for SAs to handle is perpetuated by gun writers who have never researched it and repeated by those on the internet who haven't followed the trail either. Why? Who knows. Maybe makes them feel macho.

 

[mscampbell2734]

I shoot a lot of the 180 grain Sig FP ammo which does 1250 to 1260 ft./s out of my 4 inch M and P 10 mm. I like higher velocity so don’t really care about the 200 and 220 grain ammo and with the Sig ammo I have 100% reliability, excellent accuracy, and very manageable recoil. I don’t reload and the ammo is about 43 bucks per box of 50 and don’t want to spend any more money than that on boutique ammo. I’m happy with it and not really sure why everyone is complaining that the 10 mm doesn’t have enough power, there are lots of other hard kicking cartridges they can buy. A Desert eagle 50 caliber AE might be fun to shoot, ….once.

That's the factory rating for Sig ammo. My question to you is have you actually chronographed it?

 

[DWalt]

Never had the slightest interest in either the .40 S&W or 10mm. I am perfectly happy to use a .400 CorBon barrel in my Government Model. It beats the .40 ballistics and comes close enough to the 10mm to suit me. Yeah, it is purely a handloading proposition, but I hardly ever shoot factory ammo anyway. And cases are very simple to form from .45 ACP cases, about as fast as you can work the press handle. I generally load to keep a 165 grain bullet close to 1000, no need to go any hotter than that. I have loaded 180s to around 1100 but that is nothing I feel I need to do. That is the heaviest bullet I have loaded in the .400. There is nothing larger than possum or coon in my neighborhood. And I do not need any magazine that will hold more than seven rounds.

 

[oink]

I've shot the sig range fodder and their HPs. I may have chronographed them but if I did I don't recall. I also have several other brands of 10 that I consider range fodder. Fiocchi, and sever others I don't recall off hand. I can tell you the Sig ammo seemed considerably hotter than the other brands.

My recovery rate for the Sig brass was pretty poor. The others landed just a few feet away. The Sig is most definitely hotter than the average stuff. I also have a .40 barrel for my 10 (G40) just for ammo availability. The 40 brass doesn't drop a lot closer than the average 10s but it is easy to find.

The Sig is definitely a hotter round although no doubt milder than the specialty loads.

 

[grip frame]

Several practice loads now available in near full power specs today.

All 180 FMJ at or over 1200 FPS from 5" barrel.

Sig
Magtech
Fiocci
AAC (palmetto)

Quite a step up from .45 +p or .40 loads.

Exceeding .357 magnum easily in energy and penetration. There is a bright future for the 10 IMO.

 

[mscampbell2734]

I've shot the sig range fodder and their HPs. I may have chronographed them but if I did I don't recall. I also have several other brands of 10 that I consider range fodder. Fiocchi, and sever others I don't recall off hand. I can tell you the Sig ammo seemed considerably hotter than the other brands.

My recovery rate for the Sig brass was pretty poor. The others landed just a few feet away. The Sig is most definitely hotter than the average stuff. I also have a .40 barrel for my 10 (G40) just for ammo availability. The 40 brass doesn't drop a lot closer than the average 10s but it is easy to find.

The Sig is definitely a hotter round although no doubt milder than the specialty loads.

I just find it interesting the FMJ load is listed as MUCH hotter then the JHP defensive load.

 

[Farmer17]

There's a youtube video where the guy is chronographing the Sig ammo and he was getting an average on the 180 grain ammo of about 1260 fps out of a 3.8 inch barrel Glock. The longer barrel Glock was a bit higher.

 

[Echo40]

I just find it interesting the FMJ load is listed as MUCH hotter then the JHP defensive load.

Perhaps the FMJ load is intended for self-defense against Bears or something?

 

[Rock185]

OK, I'll out myself as being a 10MM fan since the cartridge was introduced. I had a very early Bren Ten, but never got even one magazine for it. After the Bren Ten, I had a succession of 10MM pistols and revolvers, and started loading 10MM as soon as dies became available. Given some of the major manufacturer lackluster ballistics though, I can see why some shooters might think it a "fraud" and not bother with the 10MM.

FWIW though, in my 5" semi-autos and revolvers, the original NORMA 200 grain factory ammo did actually average 1200 FPS, or a bit more. I chronographed the very last of my old NORMA 200 grain in my 5" GP100 revolver. It averaged 1211 FPS. Later 200 grain NORMA, with a tiny "NP" stamped on the primers, was slower. Perhaps this later/slower NORMA ammo is what some shooters used as the same "200 grain at 1200 FPS" marked boxes were still being used.

A few years ago, factory Buffalo Bore 180 grain averaged 1380 FPS in my 5" S&W 1026. More recently purchased BB 180 averaged only 1306 FPS. Don't know if this was intentional on BB's part, or just a variation in lots. Underwood 165 grain JHP averages 1366 FPS in the same 5" model 1026.

The 10MM is no .41 Magnum, but I'm still a fan. The 10MM, .45 ACP and .357 are about as much as my old wrists can tolerate now days anyway.

 

[Charlie Foxtrott]

I think that it is pretty clear. There is no fraud present.

At least as implied by the original poster. It is pretty well understood by 10mm fans that if you want to utilize the potential of the round that you have to either load your own ammo suited to your gun and use or be prepared to purchase ammunition that will perform to your requirements.
Underperforming factory ammo is nothing new, just ask the guys shooting .38 Special rounds. Or a bunch of other factory rounds for that matter. Nothing to see here.

 

[stansdds]

I just find it interesting the FMJ load is listed as MUCH hotter then the JHP defensive load.

The FMJ loads may actually be intended for protection against dangerous animals. JHP loads being a lower velocity may be for recoil reduction/tolerance. Also, ammo manufacturers may use the same JHP bullet in 40 S&W ammo. If a bullet expands well and penetrates to the "optimum" 16-18 inches of ballistic gel at 40 S&W velocity, driving that same bullet at full power 10mm velocity can result in explosive expansion and bullet fragmentation, but very shallow penetration.