Submarine missing

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Since this story was first reported I have sifted through news media sites, social media and open forums trying to glean as much info as I could about this dreadful saga hoping against hope.

My main takeaway is that there is no shortage of callousness in this world.

Torches and pitchforks displaced compassion.
 
Since this story was first reported I have sifted through news media sites, social media and open forums trying to glean as much info as I could about this dreadful saga hoping against hope.

My main takeaway is that there is no shortage of callousness in this world.

Torches and pitchforks displaced compassion.

The memes have even alarmed me, and I have a dark sense of humor.
I also did my homework. As I understand it, this was a bi material composite hull of titanium and carbon fiber.
As I understand these things, that is an engraved invitation to de-lamination. I imagine it sounded like a peel of thunder from a nearby lightning strike, then it was over.
I'm glad that's how it happened. The protracted option was going to be unpleasant on so many levels and in so many ways I could only begin to imagine. I'm not really sure how to express the reality without somehow adding to the pile.
 
CNN just aired an interview with a Navy Doctor She said that at the depth the submersible was when the hull failed, it would have imploded at a rate of 1500 MILES PER HOUR, much faster than the human brain could receive and process any clues that it happened. Death was instantaneous. And there would unlikely be any human remains to be found.
 
Where I now work, children, women, and men whose annual income averages $348 die violently while walking to try to get food or water. Here's an example.
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No one in the West will care. No celebrity nor social media interest here.
 
The memes have even alarmed me, and I have a dark sense of humor.
I also did my homework. As I understand it, this was a bi material composite hull of titanium and carbon fiber.
As I understand these things, that is an engraved invitation to de-lamination. I imagine it sounded like a peel of thunder from a nearby lightning strike, then it was over.
I'm glad that's how it happened. The protracted option was going to be unpleasant on so many levels and in so many ways I could only begin to imagine. I'm not really sure how to express the reality without somehow adding to the pile.

I heard the tube section was 5" thick carbon fiber and the end caps were titanium. The flexing of the carbon fiber over repeated dives would have caused delamination as you mentioned
 
I believe that the state of New Hampshire charges people who get lost in the forests and on mountains for the cost of the rescue. Not just rich people, but everyone. Whether it's the real cost or just a token amount, I did not know.

That said, I agree with you about charging people for responding to emergencies. I seem to remember that some fire chief somewhere wanted to charge non residents of his service agency for fire response to car crashes. In part that was because they didn't operate the EMS system and got no money from those transports.

That idea died a quick death.

It's interesting that this sort of comment is usually heard only when wealthy people get in trouble and need to be rescued.

I spent 30 years as a firefighter working in poor inner-city neighborhoods. The population I served were largely dependent upon the government, to varying degrees, for housing, food, and medical care. Those who worked didn't earn much money, and consequently paid little, if anything, in taxes.

The fires I responded to were rarely non-preventable. They were caused by people falling asleep while smoking or cooking (often while intoxicated); arson; careless handling of flammable materials; negligence with electrical appliances; illegal electrical or natural gas hookups, etc., etc. Many (not all, but many) of our emergency medical calls were, similarly, the result of some dangerous or risky personal behavior, such as smoking, drinking, drug use, or criminal activity. (The vast majority of the shooting victims I encountered were drug dealers, shot by their peers.)

Yet, despite many of our victims being largely responsible for their own predicaments, society almost universally viewed them as victims of poverty or circumstance. They were accorded only sympathy and compassion, and no ever suggested it was inappropriate to spend taxpayer funds to save their lives or property.

(Let me hasten to add that we never, ever, viewed the citizens we served as unworthy or undeserving of our efforts. We willingly busted our butts, and risked our lives and health, for anyone who needed us, without regard to that person's station in life.)

The five men aboard the Titan were entrepreneurs, people who created jobs, undoubtedly paid a king's ransom in taxes, and contributed to society. I don't in the slightest begrudge them the taxpayer dollars that were spent to try to save them.
 
I believe that the state of New Hampshire charges people who get lost in the forests and on mountains for the cost of the rescue. Not just rich people, but everyone. Whether it's the real cost or just a token amount, I did not know.

That said, I agree with you about charging people for responding to emergencies. I seem to remember that some fire chief somewhere wanted to charge non residents of his service agency for fire response to car crashes. In part that was because they didn't operate the EMS system and got no money from those transports.

That idea died a quick death.

The only exception I can think of involves DUI crashes. I believe drunk drivers should pay for all the carnage they’re responsible for.

Apologies for the thread drift...
 
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Sir, no disrespect intended but what does any of this have to do with the downed submersible?

The disparity of attention paid by we news consumers between misfortunes befalling the rich and famous playing at expensive hobbies versus the tragic, everyday deaths of the poor and non-famous just trying to survive.

By the way, the explosion's burn scar on the right wall blackened Yardimeli Hospital for mothers and babies' outer wall.

Consider the media coverage over 5 dead after passengers paid $250k each to tour a gravesite as opposed to complete silence on just another weekday slaughter of folks trying to find a way to live. In fairness, the week the Challenger exploded I co-investigated a 7-fatality traffic accident wherein 6 utterly innocent people, including a baby in her mother's arms, were killed - Challenger deaths dominated the news; the 7 dead on NM 264 made a small item in the local paper.
 
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Yes, the bigger the disaster the more it is covered. From my time working in TV news, "if it burns it earns". "If it doesn't bleed, burn, or blow up, we don't cover it". Like the games in Rome.
 
My deal is that in this case, which is even worse than those people who get in trouble on top of Everest, the chance of rescue is very very close to zero. Those people put themselves in a situation where they should have well understood that rescue was extremely unlikely. A fire in a residential area is a whole different issue. For one thing the fire department was setup and funded for for those exact issue. Not a nickle of the money spend on this was allocated for such rescues.

There were millions of dollars spend trying to save 5 people who paid to put themselves in a situation where any chance of rescue was nil and everyone authorizing those expenditures knew they were throwing that money away. Once they knew it was missing would have had better odds of winning the lottery as saving anyone. Even if they had located the the sub intact on the bottom they still had near zero chance of saving those inside.

I will even bet it comes out that the parent vessel highly suspected an implosion in some manner. I would think any kind of listening device in close proximity would have heard it.

Plus, I don't care how much some billionaire in India paid in taxes there.

You can call me heartless if you want. But, the facts are what they are. I wasn't all that big on saving the nit wit woman basketball player, from herself, either.
 
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My deal is that in this case, which is even worse than those people who get in trouble on top of Everest, the chance of rescue is very very close to zero. Those people put themselves in a situation where they should have well understood that rescue was extremely unlikely. A fire in a residential area is a whole different issue. For one thing the fire department was setup and funded for for those exact issue. Not a nickle of the money spend on this was allocated for such rescues.

There were millions of dollars spend trying to save 5 people who paid to put themselves in a situation where any chance of rescue was nil and everyone authorizing those expenditures knew they were throwing that money away. Once they knew it was missing would have had better odds of winning the lottery as saving anyone. Even if they had located the the sub intact on the bottom they still had near zero chance of saving those inside.

I will even bet it comes out that the parent vessel highly suspected an implosion in some manner. I would think any kind of listening device in close proximity would have heard it.

Plus, I don't care how much some billionaire in India paid in taxes there.

You can call me heartless if you want. But, the facts are what they are. I wasn't all that big on saving the nit wit woman basketball player, from herself, either.

As the Reverend Doctor Billy Sol Hargis used to say, " Say Halleluiah, say Amen "
 
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My deal is that in this case, which is even worse than those people who get in trouble on top of Everest, the chance of rescue is very very close to zero. Those people put themselves in a situation where they should have well understood that rescue was extremely unlikely. A fire in a residential area is a whole different issue. For one thing the fire department was setup and funded for for those exact issue. Not a nickle of the money spend on this was allocated for such rescues.

There were millions of dollars spend trying to save 5 people who paid to put themselves in a situation where any chance of rescue was nil and everyone authorizing those expenditures knew they were throwing that money away. Once they knew it was missing would have had better odds of winning the lottery as saving anyone. Even if they had located the the sub intact on the bottom they still had near zero chance of saving those inside.

I will even bet it comes out that the parent vessel highly suspected an implosion in some manner. I would think any kind of listening device in close proximity would have heard it.

Plus, I don't care how much some billionaire in India paid in taxes there.

You can call me heartless if you want. But, the facts are what they are. I wasn't all that big on saving the nit wit woman basketball player, from herself, either.


Like all lost submarines since it was installed over 60 years ago SOSUS hydrophone array detected the implosion of the tiny submersible. The Sound Surveillance System (SOSUS) I believe the as changed to a computer monitored system that is not manned full time but can be accessed from many different bases.
The US Navy noted the sound of the implosion on Sunday, most likely by reviewing the computer for sound signature at the time contact was lost. This was communicated to the Coast Guard in charge of the search. But until confirmation you still search.
I know it is expensive but when I was an active duty submarine officer I would have wanted them to search for the submarines I served on.
 
We paid you and my one step son to be on those subs and you had a mission. . There were also many others with you on those subs and you were not in 13,000 ft of water. If you had gone down in 13,000ft of water they would not have tried to "save you". They would have looked for it yes.
Far different that this
 
If the sub imploded on it's initial descent, what were the tapping/banging sounds that were reported a day or two ago? The news said tapping sounds were heard on thirty minute intervals? I haven't heard the news address this. Does anybody know?
 
Realistically, practically, we're talking about literal milliseconds - mercifully likely quicker than the mind could process the beginning of a thought, much less to formulate the conclusion that there was a problem and the realization of the implications of that.

Catastrophic failure of the carbon fiber pressure chamber would have been "instantaneous". And it was an implosion, not an explosion, and the implications for human bodies at those depths and those pressures are such that should in the unlikely event any remains could be recovered, you would be talking about nothing more than tissue samples.

No good aspect for the victims except to say they never knew it when it happened. :(

My wife and I had the same simultaneous response when a member of the press asked a Coast Guard admiral about efforts to recover the remains of the passenger and crew:

“What remains?”

The admiral was much more tactful and evasive, starting into a discussion of the extreme environment and nature of the event and then veering off into more or less “I don’t know about that yet.”.

In aviation, by regulation after a certain number of flight hours, air frames are required to be x-rayed for microscopic stress fractures then fluxed if needed or scrapped/decertified if not possible.

Regulations, in the form of Airworthiness Directives (ADs) only require inspections of spars or critical structures in circumstances where there is reason to believe that the structure is at risk of failure to to stress or fatigue cracks. They are usually the result of cracks or failures being found once the aircraft has been in service for awhile.

They often are initiated as a Service Bulletin issued by the manufacturer or current type certificate holder. If the FAA sees it as a safety issue, it may follow with with its own AD.

For example, there were recently two rudder failures on PA-20 aircraft where the top portion of the rudder folded over due to rust in the rudder post. The PA-20 is a 1950s era aircraft. The two in question had long histories of being operated on floats, where they were frequently exposed to spray, etc. Both aircraft also had rotating beacons mounted ion the rudders, which both increases stress on the rudder, and provides a potential entry point for moisture.

A few more rudders were found that had been removed due to corrosion issues. The manufacturer issued a service bullet requiring replacement of the rudder with a new one with a thicker rudder post.

SBs are only required for aircraft operated under part 135 (unscheduled charter operations) or part 121 (scheduled air carrier operations). They are not required for part 91 operations.

The FAA may or may not at some point publish an AD. It probably won’t as neither of these rudder failures resulted in a loss of control or any injuries or deaths, and they occurred only on float planes, and only on float planes with rotating beacons on the rudder.

That same rudder assembly is also used on a wide range of Piper aircraft including the Tri-Pacer, Super Cub, Pawnee, etc. Consequently, the FAA could also expand the scope of the AD if it published one, but it has to balance the cost involved (around $$3000 per aircraft) plus the limited availability of new rudders for combined fleets of thousands of aircraft, with the extremely low probability of the possible fault causing death or injury (very rare occurrence and when it occurs it has not rendered the aircraft uncontrollable and caused a crash).

It’s also more practical and arguably just as safe to have the AP/IA performing the required annual or 100 hour inspections just push and pull on the top of the rudder to ensure it doesn’t bend. For tailwheel aircraft like the PA-20, Pawnee and Super Cub the push pull test is also something that the pilot can check during pre flight (provided it’s not on floats).

The FAA could also issue an AD but only make it applicable to aircraft that have or have had float fittings attached and thus that may have been operated as float planes, and or to aircraft with rotating beacons on the rudder.

—-

Those SBs and ADs specify a means of compliance. An AD, as a form or regulation does out for public comment in a Notice of Proposed Rule Making Process (NPRM) required by the Administrative Procedures Act. During that public comment alternate means of compliance can be be proposed and approved by the FAA in the final rule.

Mandatory inspections after so many hours in service, or on some sort of weighted scale based on different types of operations might be required by the manufacturer based on how the structure was originally engineered and an estimated life span for the structure. Similarly, they can be developed or revised in conjunction with the manufacturer.

This AD is an example of one that imposes various spar cap limits ranging from 13,300 hours for early radial engine Air Tractor 400 aircraft with progressively lower limits for later higher performing 401 and 401B aircraft as well as the even later turbine powered 402 series aircraft where the spar cap life is as short as 2000 hours before mandatory inspections must be made at intervals of 600-1000 flight hours based on model and serial number, with a multiplier for aircraft with winglets.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2008/12/10/E8-29165/airworthiness-directives-air-tractor-inc-models-at-400-at-401-at-401b-at-402-at-402a-and-at-402b

Using carbon fiber materials, which are strong for the weight but can be called 'brittle', one has to wonder if previous trips stressed the materials that resulted in the company pushing their luck one time too many. Given there was no accepted safety standards ever certified for the vessel there are hard questions to be answered and liabilities explored.

This is one of the safety issues raised by a previously fired employee, his director of operations and safety. Apparently Rush rejected the recommendation by that employee (who was one pr those non inspiring 50 year old white guys he preferred not to hire) to have the 5” thick carbon fiber pressure hull non destructively inspected to ensure there were no voids in the layup of the structure.

The concern was that even a very small void will increase in size with each pressure cycle, until it becomes large enough to cause a catastrophic failure.

In this case the pressure cycles in the prior dives to various depths including two all the way to the Titanic in 2021 and 2022 most likely caused a propagation of a small void to the point of causing a failure on this last dive.

In a just world, Stockton Rush would have been struck by a small stream of water just long enough before the hull imploded for him (but no one else) to recognize what was about to happen and realize he’d just killed himself and the other 4 people on board.

There’s also a second reason why this is the first manned submersible to use a composite hull. Way back in the day when I was involved in public safety diving and also worked part time for a local dive shop and hydro test facility, we saw a lot of SCBA tanks (Scott Air-Paks, etc) that used composite carbon fiber wrapped tanks. They both had a limited 15 year life and were also immediately condemned of the outer layer of resin was compromised exposing the wrap. Any water getting into the wrap would eventually cause a failure.

As a rebreather diver I occasionally see carbon fiber wrapped tanks in use on rebreathers for oxygen and diluent tanks, but as a cave and wreck diver they are not something I would ever consider due to the inevitable damage they would receive.

When an engineer looks at a submersible with a carbon fiber pressure hull, they have to start considering all the attachments to that pressure hull, and the potential for chafing or other damage to the outer layer of that hull that absolutely must keep water out of the inner wraps. And in the case of a 4000 meter rusted hull, being about to do that with over 6000 psi of pressure.

It becomes a race to see whether an undetected void or in detected salt water damage will cause the implosion first.
 
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