Letter Arrived .44 Hand Ejector 2nd Model with Pearl Handles

[Modified]

Thanks for the info I took some more pics, also attached some of the snub nose under the grips. Modified guns don't bother me if they're done well, I got a good deal on them probably gonna pick up some .44 special ammo and see what it's like. The action is smooth as butter on it.

Ok, so there may be something interesting here. If you cock the hammer, is anything written on the left side? I think I see something peeking out there. Which is very cool if its what I think it is.

Also, do I see a stamp that says 4.60 on the frame under the grips there?

It looks like you also have an S and a Diamond on it. So the service department certainly did something to it. At this moment I am leaning toward a situation where the barrel was blown up and replaced in April of 1960 if I am seeing that right.

I'd wager this gun had *stuff* done to it over the whole course of its life. I don't think what you see here is anything less than mods and work done to it over the course of decades.

 

[shown50]

Ok, so there may be something interesting here. If you cock the hammer, is anything written on the left side? I think I see something peeking out there. Which is very cool if its what I think it is.

Also, do I see a stamp that says 4.60 on the frame under the grips there?

It looks like you also have an S and a Diamond on it. So the service department certainly did something to it. At this moment I am leaning toward a situation where the barrel was blown up and replaced in April of 1960 if I am seeing that right.

I'd wager this gun had *stuff* done to it over the whole course of its life. I don't think what you see here is anything less than mods and work done to it over the course of decades.

Good eye I wouldn't have even noticed it I attached a picture it says King "cockeyed" Hammer.

Yes the snub has a 4.60 and S with diamond on it, the 6 inch doesn't have anything on its grip frame other than the 2 on the left side and a B F on the right.

 

[Modified]

Well that would explain the super smooth action.

Looks like D.W. King replaced your hammer. The cockeyed hammer and action job (maybe even a short action?) is going to make for one sweeeeet shooter.

From what I have seen here this is what I *think* is going on with your gun.

The action was worked and hammer replaced by King, sometime in the 30s-early 40s.

The sights are of a pre-war style, but don't appear to be King. Maybe a home job, maybe some unknown shop. The quality of the work is not King level nor Service Department level. Not sure who did them. Could have been put on any time before the current nickel job was applied, but most likely pre-war due to the fact that most post war sight jobs just involved ordering the very superior S&W sights and installing them (you even find them on a ton of colts and other guns).

The barrel was probably replaced by S&W in 1960 (probably after someone blew it up).

The current finish it is wearing was applied 1960 or after.

This is of course just opinion. I could have things out of order, and who knows what else could have happened to it over the years. The gun was clearly loved and used and shot a lot.

It's very cool, you should enjoy it immensely. If it were mine I would find an old set of target grips for it, something that matches the character of the gun. And then shoot the heck out of it as the previous owners clearly have. .44 Special is the best of cartridges, so pleasant, so much fun.

Edit: guessing the snub had the barrel put on it in '60, no idea on the 44, although with that stamp it does look like it was a service dept job.

 

[shown50]

Well that would explain the super smooth action.

Looks like D.W. King replaced your hammer. The cockeyed hammer and action job (maybe even a short action?) is going to make for one sweeeeet shooter.

From what I have seen here this is what I *think* is going on with your gun.

The action was worked and hammer replaced by King, sometime in the 30s-early 40s.

The sights are of a pre-war style, but don't appear to be King. Maybe a home job, maybe some unknown shop. The quality of the work is not King level nor Service Department level. Not sure who did them. Could have been put on any time before the current nickel job was applied, but most likely pre-war due to the fact that most post war sight jobs just involved ordering the very superior S&W sights and installing them (you even find them on a ton of colts and other guns).

The barrel was replaced by S&W in 1960 (probably after someone blew it up).

The current finish it is wearing was applied 1960 or after.

This is of course just opinion. I could have things out of order, and who knows what else could have happened to it over the years. The gun was clearly loved and used and shot a lot.

It's very cool, you should enjoy it immensely. If it were mine I would find an old set of target grips for it, something that matches the character of the gun. And then shoot the heck out of it as the previous owners clearly have. .44 Special is the best of cartridges, so pleasant, so much fun.

Thanks for the info I've never heard of the cockeyed hammer before. The only other N frame I've got is a 28-2 in the box which doesn't appear to have been shot or if it has it was very little as it's barely got a turn line and no carbon burn. The grips will definitely have to come off for me to shoot it as they're way too narrow for my hand. I'll probably go through the letter process to see if they have any records on the work done there if anything was done. Any idea on what kind of load these can handle? It's not something I'll shoot a ton just for ammo prices. I've read some online that people use cowboy loads?

 

[shown50]

He had one of the model 29 silhouette revolvers without the box are they worth anything or just a novelty? Most of the guns were 6-8inch barrels, a flat latch 36, model 38, a snub 15-3 none with the box.

 

[Modified]

Look up DW King, you will find some really cool stuff. They have quite the following. I'm personally a serious cultist.

I'd suggest just grabbing the cowboy loads. While people did and do push the loads, you will enjoy normal pressure or cowboy loads the most I expect. It's just a pleasure shooting gun these days, no reason to load it with anything that might cause you to have to replace the barrel....again.

 

[shown50]

Look up DW King, you will find some really cool stuff. They have quite the following. I'm personally a serious cultist.

I'd suggest just grabbing the cowboy loads. While people did and do push the loads, you will enjoy normal pressure or cowboy loads the most I expect. It's just a pleasure shooting gun these days, no reason to load it with anything that might cause you to have to replace the barrel....again.

I couldn't find a ton of info on the cockeyed hammer but I did see some older catalogs that were pretty cool. It does appear to have a short action on it, thanks for the help on the ammo.

 

[Modified]

Ok, I just realized you said that the snub has the 1960 mark, so I will edit my post a bit.

 

[raljr1]

I like it.

Robert

 

[rct269]

A King Cockeyed Hammer is the original S&W hammer--refashioned by grinding the spur off, and welding on a (King) replacement ($5.00). This was normally accomplished by sending your hammer to King. A King Short Action conversion is easily detected by cocking the hammer, and observing its position in relation to another (stock) gun---or simply by sight, given a modicum of familiarity with the long action pre-war guns. As to S&W "cockeyed" hammers, this from an April 13, 1998 "factory letter": "Smith & Wesson did ship a few handguns with this style of hammer at an extra charge of $1.00."

For those interested in such things, this from King's catalog (circa late 1930's): "The King System of Short Actions is now available for both Smith & Wesson and Colt Revolvers. "Short actions including adjusting trigger pull-----------S&W, $10.00---Colt, $8.50"

By the by, that $5.00 charge for the Cockeyed Hammer conversion anticipates King receiving only the hammer to be converted. You pay more if they had to disassemble/reassemble your gun. You could also buy a Cockeyed Hammer for $5.00-----plus the cost of the hammer.

Then, as now, there ain't no free lunch!!

Ralph Tremaine

And as an aside, and while any and all are entitled to their own opinions, the post-war S&W sight (which actually came to be in 1940) is anything but a "very superior" sight; although it is more simple to use.

That which preceded it, the so-called "two screw" sight is clearly the superior sight, simply by virtue of the fact it is infinitely adjustable whereas the so-called Micrometer ("click") sight is not----giving a change in point of impact of 1/4-1/2" (whatever it is) at 25 yards for each "click". Now that's good enough for most folks who couldn't drive nails, light matches, blow out candles, or murder Bumblebees in the first place; but the folks who are worthy of the name "Shooter" have no use for them whatsoever!

And by the by again, S&W handguns (for an unknown period of time) were decidedly different---one from the other (target vs. fixed sight) as respects trigger pull and action treatment. The trigger pull spec for Targets was 3-4 lbs.---5-7 lbs. for fixed sight. (As an aside, I checked the trigger pull on 14 M&P Targets from my collection of target guns---3.5 lbs. right down the line. (Yeah, I know there's no compelling reason to have 14 examples of the same gun, but then again, there's no compelling reason not to---and the M&P Target was THE preferred revolver, right down the line-----most especially among the "Long Shooters".) This from the 1925 S&W catalog: "For these reasons a special type of trigger pull is desirable-----not by any means simply a very light pull, but one having the peculiar quality termed "short and crisp" by shooters. This not only requires a special type of notch and trigger point, but requires a different adjustment of the working parts of the action."

 

[paplinker]

Well here is the long and short of it

 

[Wiregrassguy]

shown50, I think you have gotten a lot of great info from Caleb, Ralph and others. I just want to address a few things that might have gotten missed.

I'm not sure what the toe is?

The toe, in this case, is the left front of the grip frame. It is where the 4.60 (April 1960) is stamped on your M&P snub. I was looking for a similar date stamp on your .44 but it was not stamped. The star I was seeing was apparently a small scrape that disappeared on later pictures.


WRT your .38 M&P snub, look under the barrel to see if there is an S<> or just a <> or O stamped on the extractor rod flat. That would mean the barrel was replaced by S&W service department.

He had one of the model 29 silhouette revolvers without the box are they worth anything or just a novelty?

They are highly collectible and you might want to acquire it if it is in very good or better condition.

 

[Modified]

And as an aside, and while any and all are entitled to their own opinions, the post-war S&W sight (which actually came to be in 1940) is anything but a "very superior" sight; although it is more simple to use.

That which preceded it, the so-called "two screw" sight is clearly the superior sight, simply by virtue of the fact it is infinitely adjustable whereas the so-called Micrometer ("click") sight is not----giving a change in point of impact of 1/4-1/2" (whatever it is) at 25 yards for each "click". Now that's good enough for most folks who couldn't drive nails, light matches, blow out candles, or murder Bumblebees in the first place; but the folks who are worthy of the name "Shooter" have no use for them whatsoever!

You are right.

I was thinking purely from the standpoint of a gunsmith asked to upgrade a gun to adjustable sights. Getting the micrometer sight was easy, it was easy to install (bigger screws), and was clearly the go-to of every custom smith once WW2 was over. I've seen them on every stripe of colt, automatic or revolver, and even on things like Hi Powers and Hi Standards.

I personally much prefer the pre war 2 screw sights, not only because of their adjustability, but because of their attractiveness and low profile.

To me, when I see a pre-war gun sporting a post war micrometer sight, it basically ruins the gun for me, the lines are all wrong. I have...mixed feelings on the K22/40 for this reason.


Regarding King Guns:

Show us your King Sighted Guns

There are a bunch of threads on the guns, but that was one that I went to after discovering the joys of a King worked gun.

 

[rct269]

THE work on KING was presented in an article in the SWCA Journal over four different issues (Spring 2001, Spring 2002, Spring 2005, and Summer 2006) authored by Jim Wallinger and Jim King. I say "article", it's more like a doctoral dissertation----SIXTY FOUR PAGES.(!!) You are left with the very accurate impression these two gentlemen have "been there, done that, and got the tee shirt"----also that they have forgotten more about King than the rest of us know----ALL the rest of us---all put together!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[shown50]

shown50, I think you have gotten a lot of great info from Caleb, Ralph and others. I just want to address a few things that might have gotten missed.



The toe, in this case, is the left front of the grip frame. It is where the 4.60 (April 1960) is stamped on your M&P snub. I was looking for a similar date stamp on your .44 but it was not stamped. The star I was seeing was apparently a small scrape that disappeared on later pictures.


WRT your .38 M&P snub, look under the barrel to see if there is an S<> or just a <> or O stamped on the extractor rod flat. That would mean the barrel was replaced by S&W service department.




They are highly collectible and you might want to acquire it if it is in very good or better condition.

Thanks for the help on the toe I wasn't really sure if it was the front or back of the grip that's why some of the pictures are just general area lol.

I'll check the snub again but I didn't see anything stamped under the barrel like the .44. It's funny I grabbed a 4 inch bull barrel square butt model 10-10 the other day for $250 to use for a barrel swap to make a snub out of and then the m&p falls into my lap already swapped haha.

I hadn't ever seen one before and wasn't really sure what I was looking at. The front sight had a roller adjustment that was new to me. It looked to be good shape didn't see any blueing loss but also I didn't check it over carefully as I had no clue how to price it. The man I've been dealing with has been very fair on the prices, there's a couple more I'd like to grab some 6-8 inch 357s and 38s and a 15-3, flat latch 36. I added a picture of some of what he had left it's hard to see everything but it was all I took.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I think I would be mining that honey pot! Let me help you with that picture...

 

[shown50]

Thanks for the help on the picture, he said he sold off most of his NIB and Lke new stuff 3-4 years ago. He's about the only guy left in my area that's selling prelock stuff for a fair price. You can still come across deals every once in a while but it seems most people are asking collector prices for shooter quality. I'm more into 2"-3.5" guns but he's got some nice stuff in longer barrels. Some are premodels, there's a 27-2 not in the picture we were talking about at the time, if I remember right I don't think any have recessed cylinders but I could be wrong. I have big hands so square butts are my go to and you can see he has a ton haha.

*edit from the picture is there anything I should be jumping on? I'm going back to look more closely at them at his house. I didn't want to bring a ton of cash the first time we met.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Well, I don't see anything that trips my trigger. If all he has are shooters, I'd concentrate on anything with target sights first.

 

[Modified]

I think I would be mining that honey pot! Let me help you with that picture...

Really hard to say from that picture, but I love the pre-war guns. I'd probably pick up that third one in first if it were me.

Then 8, 9, and 10. I can't see what is going on there really, but they are catching my eye.

Any pre-war N-Frame is well worth owning at a decent price. Exceedingly pleasing guns.

Followed by any post-war N frame with an S prefix on the serial number.

Truth is it looks like *all* of the guns are good, but if I had a pocket full of cash and were buying that is how I would prioritize.

 

[shown50]

Really hard to say from that picture, but I love the pre-war guns. I'd probably pick up that third one in first if it were me.

Then 8, 9, and 10. I can't see what is going on there really, but they are catching my eye.

Any pre-war N-Frame is well worth owning at a decent price. Exceedingly pleasing guns.

Followed by any post-war N frame with an S prefix on the serial number.

Truth is it looks like *all* of the guns are good, but if I had a pocket full of cash and were buying that is how I would prioritize.

Prewar .38s, safety hammerless, and 2-3.5/4 inch 357s are what I normally look for. He didn't describe what he had over the phone other than a bunch of guns without boxes so wasn't really sure what I was getting into. I know he had a 17-something that looked nice and some 28-s and 27-s. Do the longer barrel guns hold their value pretty well?