Terminology

[glowe]

Let me add to the "scarce" term often used here on the forum. As Mike states, scarce is where demand for the product exceeds supply, positively effecting value.

I have an example of what I think is a scarce S&W. Ed McGivern owned-guns are scarce by the definition of the word. Many S&Ws that Ed owned were M&P revolvers that typically would sell from $300 to $800 today. Those same guns associated with Ed McGivern, on the other hand, sell for thousands of dollars. I have been working on a database of McGivern owned guns and have documented nearly 90 guns to date. They only show up for sale at a couple of auctions every year. A scarce grouping of guns indeed.

Another gun that appears to be either scarce or rare is a sub-model M&P Target I have been doing some research on. It seems that there are just a few examples that show up over time. They are 4 screw square-butt 32 Winchester & 38 Special Target guns. Made for only months in 1905, they represent the very first square butt solid frame revolvers made by S&W. By my efforts, it can be accurately estimated that there were less than 100 of these 38 Target M&Ps in existence today. With the help of members here on the Forum, I have located only about 19 38 Special Targets and no 32 Winchester Targets have been found. They are as uncommon as Ed McGivern guns, but have little added value, so what are they, rare or scarce? Maybe neither.

 

[steelslaver]

Question for all the for all pre haters who use the argument that S&W never called any of the pre anything. Did they actually call the first 357s "Registered magnums" and when they quit using the reg # how long if ever did they use the name "non registered Magnums"?

Like the pistol purist, that believes only semi autos are pistols and not revolvers, when revolvers were called pistols long before anyone ever made a self loader.

 

[glowe]

357 Magnum of the 1930s was the most expensive S&W you could buy, some 25% higher priced than the 44 Specials and 38/44 Outdoorsman revolvers. Page from a 1938 catalog. Note the last paragraph. Guess any name you use is still better than pre-Model 27 for a Registered Magnum made 23 years before the model numbers were introduced.

The 1935 catalog introduced the "Magnum" in the price list of that year without mention of a Registered Magnum as an option to purchase, assuming that meant they were not a "standard" offering.

 

[JP@AK]

Another gun that appears to be either scarce or rare is a sub-model M&P Target I have been doing some research on. It seems that there are just a few examples that show up over time. They are 4 screw square-butt 32 Winchester & 38 Special Target guns. Made for only months in 1905, they represent the very first square butt solid frame revolvers made by S&W. By my efforts, it can be accurately estimated that there were less than 100 of these 38 Target M&Ps in existence today. With the help of members here on the Forum, I have located only about 19 38 Special Targets and no 32 Winchester Targets have been found.

Gary
Here is one in .32 Winchester for you. It is a 5" unit, with only four frame screws. I bought it from Wayne Anthony Ross in 2005, and it was wearing the post-1910 stocks shown in the photo. It shipped from the factory on March 15, 1904, and was sent to Philip Bekeart in San Francisco.
The letter on it says the original stocks were black hard rubber and that is what it has on it now.

Added: I just reread your post and realized you specified square butt, while this one is a Model of 1902. So, I guess you still haven't found one.
Nevertheless, this is a very uncommon revolver.

 

[mikepriwer]

Gary

In thinking about an appropriate descriptor for those early 4-screw 1905's, I'm considering 'scarcely rare', and 'rarely scarce'. When demand exceeds supply, the item in question would typically be pricey. And, a synonym for rare is occasionally. So, 'rarely scarce' can mean 'occasionally pricey', which is definitely the case, and therefore is a good descriptor.

'Scarcely rare', on the other hand, just doesn't seem to be workable!

Regards, Mike

 

[mikepriwer]

Jack

Gary is talking about the small number of early square-butt(1905) 4-screw target revolvers that were made. For the .38 series, they are in the serial number range of 58000 to 62449. That range also contains 4-screw round-butt (1902) target revolvers, like yours. What is not known is the split, within that range, between 1902's and 1905's, and then further between targets and fixed-sighted guns. Working from known revolvers, Gary has been trying to estimate these splits.

Regards, Mike

 

[rct269]

Speaking of terminology--and names vs numbers:

For openers, I haven't been in a retail gun shop in years (so I don't know if they speak names or numbers)---but I cringe to imagine what might come to pass if/when this scenario might come to pass---and the folks in Springfield---and Maryville, ought to be cringing too.

Here's the scene: The customer is shopping for a gun----let's say a 357 Magnum of some sort (because that name still has a mystique---and it draws). Here's the clerk. He has a Combat Magnum in one hand, and a Colt Python in the other. He asks the customer if he'd prefer a Model 19, or a Colt Python.

All I can do at this point is bust out laughing!

There's an old saying, goes like this: "Sell the sizzle, not the steak!" And there ain't no sizzle at all in "Model 19"-----NONE!!!!

Ralph Tremaine

Yeah, I know---the customer is more likely to be shopping for a plastic fantastic than for a real gun.

 

[JP@AK]

Gary is talking about the small number of early square-butt(1905) 4-screw target revolvers that were made. For the .38 series, they are in the serial number range of 58000 to 62449. That range also contains 4-screw round-butt (1902) target revolvers, like yours.

Thanks, Mike.

I noticed that after I posted, which is why I added the line at the end.

Gary has launched on an important quest. I wish him the best of success. If I come across one, I'll let him know right away.

 

[Frieda's Boss]

Speaking of terminology--and names vs numbers:

For openers, I haven't been in a retail gun shop in years (so I don't know if they speak names or numbers)---but I cringe to imagine what might come to pass if/when this scenario might come to pass---and the folks in Springfield---and Maryville, ought to be cringing too.

Here's the scene: The customer is shopping for a gun----let's say a 357 Magnum of some sort (because that name still has a mystique---and it draws). Here's the clerk. He has a Combat Magnum in one hand, and a Colt Python in the other. He asks the customer if he'd prefer a Model 19, or a Colt Python.

All I can do at this point is bust out laughing!

There's an old saying, goes like this: "Sell the sizzle, not the steak!" And there ain't no sizzle at all in "Model 19"-----NONE!!!!

Ralph Tremaine

Yeah, I know---the customer is more likely to be shopping for a plastic fantastic than for a real gun.

I agree that all of the names sound better than any number ever could, and combat magnum definitely has a ring to it. I always liked the sound of combat masterpiece too. Highway Patrolman is another wonderful name...Chiefs Special...Could go on forever listing great revolver names. Numbers are boring and lazy by comparison.

 

[John Patrick]

Replying to RTC, I work part time in a gun shop and part time in a range/gun shop.

It’s mostly model numbers for everything, the relatively few revolvers or the plethora of plastic fantastics. It doesn’t help that S&W has recycled names, like Bodyguard or M&P, but their pistols go by name more than any other brand, or their revolvers.

Both shops buy used guns and will do consignment. Its rare to have a pre model number S&W in the shop, though I made a mistake and recently sold a customer a nice US Army Model of 1917 I should have bought myself. Other than me, no staff know the names, and I don’t have them down pat for the earliest guns.

 

[glowe]

. . . In thinking about an appropriate descriptor for those early 4-screw 1905's, I'm considering 'scarcely rare', and 'rarely scarce'. When demand exceeds supply, the item in question would typically be pricey. And, a synonym for rare is occasionally. So, 'rarely scarce' can mean 'occasionally pricey', which is definitely the case, and therefore is a good descriptor . . .

I am leaning towards rarely-scarce. Does not warrant a premium to purchase, but is is seldom seen. Now if we could just figure what to call this revolver???

Thanks, Mike.

I noticed that after I posted, which is why I added the line at the end . . .

Jack, the serial number range where the 32 Winchester square-butt 4 screw model shows up is between 16,830 – 18,130, so only a total of 1300 round and square-butt guns were made. Reduce that number by how many were square-butt targets and how many survived and you will get a very small number, probably under 20 examples.

I HATE WHEN SOMEONE POSST GIANT IMAGES!

 

[DARE]

A little off the subject, but wonder why there were so few .357 Magnum Transitional compared to the .38/44 Outdoorsman Transitional? 142 Magnums and approximate production 2,326 for the .38/44.

 

[JSR III]

Of course one must add to the mix with terms like "Ladysmith" which if I understand was never used by S&W and is what we call "collectorspeak".

I think terms like pre Model were invented by collectors to let a buyer know that in any given model, this particular gun was built before model numbers were assigned in the 50's.

It's kind of like calling a baby or a teenager a pre adult. You get the idea but it doesn't really narrow down the age. Then you get into the argument that a pre model only includes those guns made with parts used just prior to model numbers appearing as opposed to one made say 10 years earlier.

Perhaps non model marked would cover everything made from the first day of production but before the 50's but still doesn't give you an exact time frame.

Oh well, life goes on......

 

[BC38]

Of course one must add to the mix with terms like "Ladysmith" which if I understand was never used by S&W and is what we call "collectorspeak"...

I'm really confused by this part of your post.
I've seen M65, 3" full underlug barrel, RB revolvers with the name "Ladysmith" factory engraved on the side. I also remember seeing S&W advertisements for the "Ladysmith" model back in the 1980's (IIRC the timeframe correctly).
So I'm pretty sure S&W did use that term.
What am I missing or misunderstanding about your statement?

 

[JSR III]

I should have qualified my remark. I was referring to the quote "Ladysmith" .22 caliber revolver that was made around 1902 to 1921.

As was mentioned earlier in this, the modern S&W has reused some of the older terminology that were both used by the company and the collector community.

The Chief Special was originally a 1 7/8" .38 special revolver and I believe was brought back as a semi automatic. Again as a purist collector I think that reusing a name used earlier by the company is kind of lame. Would it really be that difficult for the brain trust at the new S&W to come up with another fitting name?

So sorry, I speak early S&W not to be confused with modern S&W. But apparently it can be.

 

[BC38]

I should have qualified my remark. I was referring to the quote "Ladysmith" .22 caliber revolver that was made around 1902 to 1921.

As was mentioned earlier in this, the modern S&W has reused some of the older terminology that were both used by the company and the collector community.

The Chief Special was originally a 1 7/8" .38 special revolver and I believe was brought back as a semi automatic. Again as a purist collector I think that reusing a name used earlier by the company is kind of lame. Would it really be that difficult for the brain trust at the new S&W to come up with another fitting name?

So sorry, I speak early S&W not to be confused with modern S&W. But apparently it can be.

AH, yes, the little I-frame "Ladysmith".

S&W resurrecting the Chief Special moniker for CS9's and CS45's is a lot like the way the auto companies resurrect car names from the past and put them on vehicles that have nothing in common with the originals.

Saw a Ford "Maverick" the other day. You know, the Ranger-sized modern iteration of the Ranchero (half car, half pickup). I told the owner that my first car was a 1970 Maverick - but that other than the name it was nothing like the current version.

Same with the modern Dodge Chargers - a 4-door sedan with absolutely nothing in common with the iconic coupe from the 1960's/1970's - other than the name.

 

[Truckman]

AH, yes, the little I-frame "Ladysmith".

I thought that one was an "M" frame...But I can always be wrong...The company does have a way of resurrecting older successful names......Ben

 

[John Patrick]

I agree reusing famous names is on the lame side.

The problem is exacerbated in the case of S&W, where it’s highly likely that an original Chiefs Special or Bodyguard, etc, is still in regular or even daily service and as ready to go as the day it left the factory.

On the other hand, not a lot of original Chargers or Impalas are still on the road.

 

[BC38]

I thought that one was an "M" frame...But I can always be wrong...The company does have a way of resurrecting older successful names......Ben

No, you are correct, and I was wrong. The Ladysmith 22's were an M frame, and came before the I frame (which doesn't actually make sense either).
But you're right, and I stand corrected.

 

[Retired W4]

No, you are correct, and I was wrong. The Ladysmith 22's were an M frame, and came before the I frame (which doesn't actually make sense either).
But you're right, and I stand corrected.

It's Smith & Wesson. It doesn't have to make sense.