9mm vs 45. M&P 2.0

[Llance]

Because I have carried and used a 1911 style firearm since I was 19 years old, I'm now 74, it's no real difference to me. My 9's are 1911 style, except for my P08. I prefer the .45 over the 9 because it's what i shoot best. But that is subjective. Does it matter which one puts you six feet under. What matters most to me is, which one is the doctor going to have the most trouble extracting from my body, if i make it to the hospital.

I agree with those who advocate you carry what you shoot best. One hit with a well-placed shot beats fifty thrown down range but not hitting anything from the muzzle to the ground.

As i said in another post, my go to in the middle of the night, handy-andy is a Stevens pump 410 18inch barrel shoddy gun, backed up by a model 60. Are you going to care when they bus crew carries you out the front door. I'd say, not a darn bit. Will I care which one sent you to the happy break-in campground? Nope!!! Just make sure you have enough insurance to bury you. If it were my choice, I'd tell them to leave you out in the back yard to rot, as a warning to the rest of the jerks who think my house is easy pickings.

Get what you shoot best regardless of caliber, and practice, practice, practice.

 

[chev37s]

I have a four inch compact 9mm 2.0 and just bought a used 4.6 inch 2.0 45. The 9mm shoots good and I carried it a good bit with a 15 plus 1 and 17 backup, but since getting the 45 , the way it shot with three different loads was really good so I’m on the fence on which I would pick. Will need more time with the 45 but from the first couple groups it is very accurate. However 33 rounds vs 21 is a tough decision, especially in today’s world. Size wise I am really impressed with how the 45 feels and is not really much bigger than the 9. Need to get the scale out for a weight comparison but I would carry either one comfortably. Right now I’d probably have to go with the 9 strictly based on the capacity.

 

[stansdds]

45 and here is why. A 9mm may kill a man, but the 45 will also kill his soul. Yep, I just love putting that into the 9mm vs 45 ACP conversations. In reality, which pistol best fits your hands? You are more likely to be able to shoot accurately and quickly with a handgun that is a good fit in your hands.

 

[walnutred]

Don't overlook the 40. I've owned two M&P 40, two M&P 45, and fired the M&P 9mm. What I've kept was a M&P 40C and M&P 40. The slightly smaller frame of the M&P40 just fits my hands better than the 45.

 

[hardluk1]

If given a choice to carry a full size 10rd 2.0 45acp with 230HST ammo or 2.0 full size 17rd 9mm with 147hst , which one would you pick? And why?

As much as I like m&p pistols my primary carry in 45 is a Colt alloy frame Commander with 8 rounds of 230gr ranger t-seies or hst in it and with 2 - 10 round mags as back up . 2 less rounds to start with but the height are the same , the weight is with in one ounce and the 1911 is thinner when thin grip panels are used along with the 1911 far better trigger .

I do not carry a 9mm yet but I have carried a 40sw since '90 and a m&p 4.25 40sw with thumb safety for 11 years with a apex trigger kit adjusted for a 3.5lb pull weight . I also have a 2.0 PC 5" 40sw filled with 155gr gd hp underwood ammo .

I do have a 4" compact 2.0 optic ready with x grip spacers for the 17 and 23 round mags . I do practice with this 9mm pistol but when I feel like I need a dot optic or a 9mm is some where down the road .


WellArmed - You might want to spend some time over at lucky gunners site reviewing how different 9mm 40sw and 45 acp ammo as most loads are tested . I have killed a a couple hogs with the standard pressure 230gr hst and a a couple hogs and deer with the 155gr GD HP from underwood Both worked well and the 155gr gd at 130018 fps passed thru 16 to 217 inch of deer when shot at 20 feet basically straight down from my tree stand with pass thru shots . Now if your still happy with 9mm well carry on but note your comparison on what a 9mm can do is false hope as none of the typical handgun cartridges are really all that with out follow up shots . At that point a certain 380 loads or 22mag might do well . HA

 

[WR Moore]

Much thumping of hairy chests here. Allow me to list the results of Sgt. Gramins shooting. Gun was Glock .45, ammo 230 gr Speer Gold Dots.

17 total hits, something over 50% hit ratio. Dynamic hits: liver, right kidney, both lungs, heart and two in the head. The guy was still in the fight and the Sarge realized he was almost out of ammo and took particular care with the 3rd head shot which reached the CNS. Clean tox screen, the guy was simply highly motivated.

 

[Well Armed]

As much as I like m&p pistols my primary carry in 45 is a Colt alloy frame Commander with 8 rounds of 230gr ranger t-seies or hst in it and with 2 - 10 round mags as back up . 2 less rounds to start with but the height are the same , the weight is with in one ounce and the 1911 is thinner when thin grip panels are used along with the 1911 far better trigger .

I do not carry a 9mm yet but I have carried a 40sw since '90 and a m&p 4.25 40sw with thumb safety for 11 years with a apex trigger kit adjusted for a 3.5lb pull weight . I also have a 2.0 PC 5" 40sw filled with 155gr gd hp underwood ammo .

I do have a 4" compact 2.0 optic ready with x grip spacers for the 17 and 23 round mags . I do practice with this 9mm pistol but when I feel like I need a dot optic or a 9mm is some where down the road .


WellArmed - You might want to spend some time over at lucky gunners site reviewing how different 9mm 40sw and 45 acp ammo as most loads are tested . I have killed a a couple hogs with the standard pressure 230gr hst and a a couple hogs and deer with the 155gr GD HP from underwood Both worked well and the 155gr gd at 130018 fps passed thru 16 to 217 inch of deer when shot at 20 feet basically straight down from my tree stand with pass thru shots . Now if your still happy with 9mm well carry on but note your comparison on what a 9mm can do is false hope as none of the typical handgun cartridges are really all that with out follow up shots . At that point a certain 380 loads or 22mag might do well . HA

I have already. Most either overpenetrate and don't expand much or they don't penetrate all that much. You are mistaken if you think 9mm could do the same thing that 45acp can do.

I suggest you research how ballistics and how bullets affect the body. 45acp is still a slow moving round. You can spout off velocity numbers, but the truth is handgun rounds out of 2"-5" barrels DO NOT CAUSE ANY HYDROSTATIC SHOCK! They are moving too slow. Go research temporary wound cavity. The temporary would cavity that we see on ballistics gel and will occur in tissue WILL NOT NECESSARILY CAUSE MORE DAMAGE OR STOP A THREAT! The velocity and muzzle energy numbers WILL NOT STOP A THREAT per se. If a 45acp goes 16" deep going 800fps or 1200 fps, it's not going to matter much. What will matter is whether or not the round hit a vital. Period. The only thing a 45acp can do that a 9mm can't is be a teeny tiny bit bigger (sometimes).

 

[Well Armed]

Much thumping of hairy chests here. Allow me to list the results of Sgt. Gramins shooting. Gun was Glock .45, ammo 230 gr Speer Gold Dots.

17 total hits, something over 50% hit ratio. Dynamic hits: liver, right kidney, both lungs, heart and two in the head. The guy was still in the fight and the Sarge realized he was almost out of ammo and took particular care with the 3rd head shot which reached the CNS. Clean tox screen, the guy was simply highly motivated.

Yrs, and there have been 2 or 3 studies that I know of that have several other smaller and weaker rounds being responsible for more deaths than 45 acp and even 9mm in some cases. There is no such thing as "stopping power." Hand rounds are terrible at stopping threats and the overwhelming majority of people shot with a variety of calibers, including 45acp and 9mm, survive. What kills is shot placement and blood loss, and not how fast a handgun round is moving when it hits the target. Shot placement, penetration, and bleeding matters the most irregardless of what caliber someone is using. The more shots on target, the more blood loss whether you hit a vital or not.

 

[Shibadog]

How does more energy equate to more damage? There is more energy at the muzzle, but more energy is being used and released in order to push the larger/heaveir round. The extra energy used to push the larger and heavier round is only going to help it penetrate further, but it's NOT going to cause more damage to the target otherwise. 9mm has less energy, but it takes less energy to push 9mm bullet 16" into a target. 45 has more energy and that energy is simply used to help overcome the resistance of pushing a slightly bigger and heavier bullet 16". Again, the energy isn't going to necessarily cause more damage especially with the slow moving 45 ACP. It's the penetration and the bullet piercing vitals that will incapacitate a human being. As long as there's enough energy to get the bullet to it's destination is what matters most.

The smaller 9mm will be able to penetrate further and expand more reliablely with it's energy vs the bigger 45acp even those the 45acp has more energy. That's because the 45acp expends it's energy at a faster rate than 9mm.

My point it that the .45 HITS harder than the nine. Everytime, with comparable (same brand/same bullet design) ammo. The more energy absorbed by the target, the more damage done. If a round expends all of its energy within a target that will translate to more damage. I like 9’s, but I’ve seen what both do, to both steel plates AND coyotes. Use what you’re comfy with, but push come to shove I’ll take a .45. I carry a 9 a good deal but if I had to use one TODAY it’d be a .45 (or my .44 Mag). Plus, as was once noted “a 9 “may” expand-a .45 will Never shrink…

 

[Well Armed]

My point it that the .45 HITS harder than the nine. Everytime, with comparable (same brand/same bullet design) ammo. The more energy absorbed by the target, the more damage done. If a round expends all of its energy within a target that will translate to more damage. I like 9’s, but I’ve seen what both do, to both steel plates AND coyotes. Use what you’re comfy with, but push come to shove I’ll take a .45. I carry a 9 a good deal but if I had to use one TODAY it’d be a .45 (or my .44 Mag). Plus, as was once noted “a 9 “may” expand-a .45 will Never shrink…

You are dead wrong, and you keep regenerating a fallacy. 45acp does not transfer energy to a target that cause more damage. That's factually incorrect. Handgun rounds are NOT moving fast enough to transfer enough energy to do anything other than punch a hole. Rifle calibers at rifle velocities transfer energy that causes any meaningful damage and NOT handgun rounds. You're simply making stuff up, making assumptions, and regurgitating what you heard about "stopping power" on the internet. As far as expansion goes, I've seen several live videos on YouTube where 230 gr HST didn't always expand even out of a 5" barrel Glock and 1911. There are several times more videos on 124 gr HST that just about always expands. I can't recall an instance off the top of my head when it didn't. Also, JHP 45acp is NOT known for penetration with expansion.


Most people prefer 44 mag and 10mm for hunting because it has the power to push larger bullets aka penetrate through the tough hide, fat, and think bone of larger animals, and NOT because any energy is being used in any other way that will cause damage. The energy that full power 10mm and 44mag has is only relevant to how much penetration that larger round can achieve. Without the energy, the round can't penetrate and take the animal down. The animals are killed from the bullet penetrating and NOT for any energy transfer or temporary wound channel. 9mm isn't suggested for hunting because it may not have the sectional density or energy to penetrate through larger animals, but it has plenty of energy to equally take down a human being no different than a 45acp. We want more penetration for larger animals than for humans, so we need a more powerful round to achieve it. That's not necessarily for human beings unless you want a through and through.

There are no magic handgun rounds that offer mythical one shot stop stopping power or energy transfer that's going to stop a threat. It's purely penetration and shot placement. If there was any concrete scientific data or statistics to prove that there was, we would not still be having this same debate across all firearm forums and social media every other day over the last several decades.

FYI: I EDC a Ruger LCR 357 as a BUG, a Kahr K40, Springfield Hellcat, or primary, a M&P Shield 45, so I am NOT a fanboy of any one caliber or being biased. My favorite caliber if I had to choose one would be 40s&w. I EDC the 45 Shield because it points naturally and fits my hand better, but I'd have no problems carrying this same exact gun chambered in 9mm or 40s&w.

 

[LVSteve]

Much thumping of hairy chests here. Allow me to list the results of Sgt. Gramins shooting. Gun was Glock .45, ammo 230 gr Speer Gold Dots.

17 total hits, something over 50% hit ratio. Dynamic hits: liver, right kidney, both lungs, heart and two in the head. The guy was still in the fight and the Sarge realized he was almost out of ammo and took particular care with the 3rd head shot which reached the CNS. Clean tox screen, the guy was simply highly motivated.

Whether driven by illicit substances or gang pride, the motivation of the bad guy is an unknown factor beyond your control when things go South. In the latter case, the mob attitude and determination that the regular guy can never be seen to defy the gang and walk away steers me towards higher capacity, and for practical carry that says 9mm.

 

[anoblefox]

I am a big fan of the 45. However, having said that, I am of the opinion, and that's all it is for me, It is much more important to be able to have muscle memory that allows me to hit the vital zone (meaning shot placement). Let's face it, ammo cost are a large factor in achieving this goal. THAT is where the 9 really comes into play. Simple fact is that the 9 is far cheaper to shoot, and the more you shoot the better your shot placement will be, all things being equal otherwise. Remember, it's just one man's opinion!

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

If given a choice to carry a full size 10rd 2.0 45acp with 230HST ammo or 2.0 full size 17rd 9mm with 147hst , which one would you pick? And why?

It really depends on the Professional Training you received.

For Self Defense it is more about the Indian and not his bow or premium arrows.

 

[Shibadog]

How does more energy equate to more damage? There is more energy at the muzzle, but more energy is being used and released in order to push the larger/heaveir round. The extra energy used to push the larger and heavier round is only going to help it penetrate further, but it's NOT going to cause more damage to the target otherwise. 9mm has less energy, but it takes less energy to push 9mm bullet 16" into a target. 45 has more energy and that energy is simply used to help overcome the resistance of pushing a slightly bigger and heavier bullet 16". Again, the energy isn't going to necessarily cause more damage especially with the slow moving 45 ACP. It's the penetration and the bullet piercing vitals that will incapacitate a human being. As long as there's enough energy to get the bullet to it's destination is what matters most.

The smaller 9mm will be able to penetrate further and expand more reliablely with it's energy vs the bigger 45acp even those the 45acp has more energy. That's because the 45acp expends it's energy at a faster rate than 9mm.

I agree that shot placement is vital-a good hit will always trump a poor one. That said, I respectfully disagree about energy not “counting” for effectiveness. If that were in fact true then a .44 Mag would not be any more effective than a nine-given both are moving at the same velocity. That’s just not the case. Heavier caliber wins. Shot placement with ANY round is “the” key. As I said, I typically will carry a 9 or .38, not because they’re “best” but because they carry easily AND I can hit with them.

 

[Fastbolt]

Still going, huh?

For the folks who prefer .45, it does offer some additional momentum, and also a bit larger expanded diameter (if it expands), meaning maybe another 1-2mm, or maybe up to a quarter of an inch? Will that cause more damage of the sort that might more quickly lend itself to incapacitation (regardless of the mechanism at work in any particular moment)?

The cost is a little less capacity, and a little more felt recoil and/or difficulty in controllability and recovery. The added felt recoil might be more of a factor for shooters with less strength, or some infirmity (like arthritis).

I remember when we added .45ACP to our issued caliber options (the alternative was .40), and were ordering new TSW's for folks. Close to 70% of the agency wanted .45's. The usual reason, if asked? Because it's a .45.

Then, of course, came the transition training and qualifications. The abrupt felt recoil and muzzle whip of the .40's was expected, but a lot of folks were surprised by the recoil of the .45, too. Slower dwell time in the hand, versus the abrupt snap of the .40, and the slower slide velocity seemed to result in some .45 shooters feeling the recoil longer, so to speak ... often meaning a slower recovery time between shots. The timers and rate of accurate holes appearing in qual threat targets usually told the tale without bias.

Folks ought to be able to consider such things for themselves, and be honest with themselves at the same time.

If your life is on the line, is it going to be the quality of rounds fired, being potentially effective hits, done quickly ... or the number of rounds fired, not all of which may be hits, let alone effectively placed (anatomically)? Sure, it can arguably be both, in a perfect world.

Run your favorite 9 & .45 in some IDPA event, or in some training class (if you have the time and money, and one can be found close to you). Decide for yourself.

I've long been a .45 aficionado, myself, but ... more often than not I'm carrying a .38 or .357 snub, or a 9 or .40 belt gun. Sometimes even a .380 LCP (when pockets are too short and tight to accommodate a J-frame). The longer I worked in LE, and served as a firearms trainer (26+ years), the more I concerned myself with working to deliver accurate and rapid hits. Caliber and capacity both took a back seat.

Suit yourselves. Just don't fool yourselves into believing something that may not be realistic when the rubber has to meet the road.

 

[Well Armed]

I agree that shot placement is vital-a good hit will always trump a poor one. That said, I respectfully disagree about energy not “counting” for effectiveness. If that were in fact true then a .44 Mag would not be any more effective than a nine-given both are moving at the same velocity. That’s just not the case. Heavier caliber wins. Shot placement with ANY round is “the” key. As I said, I typically will carry a 9 or .38, not because they’re “best” but because they carry easily AND I can hit with them.

I didn't say energy doesn't count. I'm saying it doesn't count in the manner most people assume when they carry larger calibers for self-defense, e.g., increased one shot stops and harder hitting energy transfer.

I have to repeat this for the 1000th time because, respectfully, the point seem to go over heads. 44mag is more effective for hunting than 9mm because 44mag has the power to penetrate further. It's NOT because of any other energy that's being transfered to the target upon impact.

44 mag also generally has a higher sectional density than 9mm which also aids in penetration through resistance. The sectional density of 9mm and 45acp can be generally almost identical.

I get it though. 45acp is bigger (barely) and bigger seems more manly and/or gives the appearance of being more deadly and a better performer. That's not the case with 45acp vs 9mm.

 

[Echo40]

I'd pick the M&P45 for no better reason than the fact that I'm not a fan of 9mm. It's a perfectly adequate self-defense/duty cartridge and all, but to me it's just sort of plain.

 

[hardluk1]

To much bs found in this tread . More guys need to hunt with handguns and learn how different ammo can get the job done IF the shooter has the ability .

practice mag changes and clearing fouled loads as you could need that skill to one day .

 

[hardluk1]

I have already. Most either overpenetrate and don't expand much or they don't penetrate all that much. You are mistaken if you think 9mm could do the same thing that 45acp can do.

I suggest you research how ballistics and how bullets affect the body. 45acp is still a slow moving round. You can spout off velocity numbers, but the truth is handgun rounds out of 2"-5" barrels DO NOT CAUSE ANY HYDROSTATIC SHOCK! They are moving too slow. Go research temporary wound cavity. The temporary would cavity that we see on ballistics gel and will occur in tissue WILL NOT NECESSARILY CAUSE MORE DAMAGE OR STOP A THREAT! The velocity and muzzle energy numbers WILL NOT STOP A THREAT per se. If a 45acp goes 16" deep going 800fps or 1200 fps, it's not going to matter much. What will matter is whether or not the round hit a vital. Period. The only thing a 45acp can do that a 9mm can't is be a teeny tiny bit bigger (sometimes).

I know you are highly corn-fused if you think I'm a 9mm guy . I do understand HYDROSTATIC SHOCK as I am a old handgun hunter . I would just prefer a 3/4 or better wound cavity even if only 12" deep than what the best 9mm can do from a typical defensive carry handgun. Now if I live long enough I may want to carry a 9mm than the 40sw or 45 but those days are not here yet . remember too as a hunter I know what some 40sw and 45acp cartridges you probably don't have . Also hunted with a 170gr 357mag and 240gr 44mag over the years in handguns and I know how effective they all can be when bullets are placed well .

If going on road trips or to a large city My 45 stays home and a m&p 4.25 40sw is carried with 155gr gd bullet from underwood that can average just over 1300fps . I taken a couple and hogs with this ammo and know it works well . I also carry 2 spare mags .

 

[Well Armed]

I know you are highly corn-fused if you think I'm a 9mm guy . I do understand HYDROSTATIC SHOCK as I am a old handgun hunter . I would just prefer a 3/4 or better wound cavity even if only 12" deep than what the best 9mm can do from a typical defensive carry handgun. Now if I live long enough I may want to carry a 9mm than the 40sw or 45 but those days are not here yet . remember too as a hunter I know what some 40sw and 45acp cartridges you probably don't have . Also hunted with a 170gr 357mag and 240gr 44mag over the years in handguns and I know how effective they all can be when bullets are placed well. 1

If going on road trips or to a large city My 45 stays home and a m&p 4.25 40sw is carried with 155gr gd bullet from underwood that can average just over 1300fps . I taken a couple and hogs with this ammo and know it works well . I also carry 2 spare mags .

As has been covered by forensics studies and emergency room doctors, they can not tell the difference between a 9mm, 40sw, 45acp, 10mm, etc, by looking at the wound. Fact check me on that.... There's zero data that I know of that points to a quarter of an inch difference (only with a small 2 or 3 commercial JHP offerings that reach 1") incapacitates any faster or better than a 9mm or the like would. You just "feel" as if it does while ignoring or dismissing what does matter most according to data and statistics.

1. The facts are that 45acp are less likely to expand because of it's speed.
2. The majority of commercially available 45 acp ammo on the market DOES NOT even actually expand to be larger than a lot of the 9mm offerings. In many cases, 45 acp are either smaller or similar size vs. 9mm.
3. JHP 45acp is generally not good at beating intermediate objects or beating them and still having enough energy to penetrate clothes, flesh and fats, break bone, and hit a vital in many cases.
4. Penetration is, by all accounts and data points, more important than size when it comes to stopping a threat, yet you'd be happy with a 45acp round with subpar pentration (12") just to gain an arguably insignificant amount of size? You would rather a few millimeters larger short wound track vs. a slightly shorter, BUT longer wound track?
5. Shot placement matters most. A hit to the brain, heart, lungs, major artery, and the like will stop a threat whether if it's a .65" 9mm or a .85" 45acp. Getting there is what's important.
6. In the absence of a hit to a major organ, bleeding incapacitates and causes death. There is no evidence that threats will bleed out more to any statically significant degree when shot, for example, in the arm, hand, buttocks, knee cap, shoulder, etc. with a .60"-.70" 9mm vs .80"-1" 45acp.
7. Contrary to popular belief, when 45acp or 9mm for that matter makes initial contact with the target, no energy is transferred that will force a threat to stop. What incapacitates and kills is stopping brain functions which can be had with stopping the heart, stopping oxygen from reaching the brain, stopping the brain from being able to communicate with other body parts, and stopping a significant amount of blood from circulating and reaching the brain.... That's what's going to "knock down" a threat rather than energy transfer. In this case, I'd wager capacity (more hits anywhere on the target), which will cause more blood loss and incapacitation than less slightly larger hits.

As @Fastbolt eluded too, 45 acp may be superior because of its size in the case that it may knick an artery or major organ that a smaller projectile may have just missed. You're giving up a known capacity, faster and more accrate follow up shots, lighter weight, and penetration advantage for an unknown low probability possible advantage.