EDC, CCW, HD, SD - Keep it simple!

[chief38]

I have become friendly with a new neighbor and he is new to guns, EDC and shooting. He in fact only owns one gun and that is a Glock 43X. That 43X is fitted with a trigger guard red laser and he asked me to bring him to the range yesterday and teach him to shoot. He told me he had only fired it a few magazines worth and was pretty much a fumbler and a bad shot. My goal was to remedy that.

Before we set out for the range I spent over an hour with him teaching him all the safety rules, the correct operation of his gun and how to hold, aim and shoot. I requested that he turn the laser off so I could teach him the fundamentals but he insisted on keeping it on. I did not want to argue as he was pretty intent on doing it. I suppose he thought without the laser he would shoot even worse and embarrass himself even more. I tried to explain that there was no reason to be embarrassed, but I was not getting through.

We get to the range and I again went over all the safety rules. He fired his first 10 round string and barley hit the paper at 5 yards. I asked him again to please turn the laser off as I did not know if it had even been properly sighted in and again, I'd like to teach him the basic fundamentals of sighting and shooting a pistol. He basically said he still wants to keep it on, and I just was not in a confrontational mood - lol. The next few magazines were just as dismal as the first and then on the 5th magazine full I saw his laser turn off. I just assumed he finally gave up on his stubbornness and turned it off. He started using the Glock's fixed w/o sights and he began to shoot remarkably better. The next 3 magazines full were a vast improvement and the hits were better, with smaller groupings closer to the bullseye. After shooting up 100 rounds we exited the range and went in to the lounge area where we chatted. I said to him what made you finally turn off the laser? He said he did not turn it off and either the batteries had died or it had broken. HA! I said to him that is why I do not personally believe any optical battery powered sight belongs on a close quarters defensive handgun! I think he was beginning to "get it"!

I know marketing and I know business as I was a businessman for most of my adult career. Optical sight company's have made a fortune over the last decade and watching people just blindly following "the trend" without ever before firing a shot amazes me! While I am not trying to start an argument here, I have seen lasers and red dot sights fail many times. Mostly in competition, but also at informal range sessions. I have never owned an optical sight of any kind with the exception of a traditional Leupold scope on a few 22 rifles, as I do not believe it is something that would ever help me at 3-15 feet (most common self defense shootings. In fact I see an optical sight as a hinderance in that it adds bulk, weight, requires special holsters, and as I have stated above, I have seen them fail multiple times over the years. It also causes you to "rely" on the optical red dot or laser. If it fails to appear your shot can be delayed long enough to make a difference. We are all creatures of habit and it does take a second to react when something does not come on as it always has in the past. Still, people must think it is "cool", an infallible way to hit heir target and improves their shooting skills with no downsides.

I could go on and on and I am sure there will be a bunch of guys and gals here that swear they have had one on their CCW gun for umpteen years with never a failure, never having it knocked out of alignment or become a hinderance. If a laser or red dot is what you insist on - hey, it's your choice. All I would like to convey is that when one of us has the opportunity to train a new shooter we do so from the ground up and teach the basics first. Then later on down the road if that person wants to play with lasers and red dots, so be it - it's their choice but at least they understand the basics first.

I will see my new friend later today when I show him how to field strip and clean his Glock - it's apparently never been cleaned wither - lol. I will see if I can determine what happened to the laser and see if he is willing to leave it off next time we go to the range. Again, I would encourage all of us participating in teaching new shooters the ropes to start with factory iron sights - at least on SD guns. Just my opinions of course......

 

[robertrwalsh]

I have one weapon with a laser, a Ruger .380 that came with it. I think I have turned it on one time at the range just for the heck of it. I also have a .22 target pistol with a red dot on it. I use it on rare occasion at the range for Steel Challenge. NONE of my actual carry guns have any battery powered assist devices on them. I don't want to become dependent on them or choke if they fail at an inconvenient time. Sounds like you are doing some good work with your neighbor. WAY TO GO DUDE.

 

[Bald1]

My .32 Tomcat has Crimson Trace laser grips. Over 10 years and never a hiccup. But should they fail the sights have exact same POI and the gun is accurate at 25 yds. Nothing wrong with “technology” as long as it’s backed up.

 

[swsig]

I've seen apparent newbies at the range with their lasers wobbling all over the target at 5 - 7 yards, and it's quite noticeable. To me, that's more "embarrassing" than ending up with a target full of scattered holes that few will see.

 

[Rustyt1953]

They have their place...

 

[stansdds]

They have their place...

ROTFLMAO! I think I'm going to steal this one.

 

[oink]

They should initially train on what they're going to use. Our dept was slow to accept semiautos. That was fine with me personally as revolvers were what I came up with and are even now still instinctive for me.

However the local accademy changed to semiautos. So when we were getting recruits fresh from accademy we were getting guys that were trained on semiautos plus the best guys, guys that were comming from a military, were comming from a semiauto background. Then we were forcing them to use revolvers. That's just stupid! Our dept went semiauto a fair number of years ago now. Currently Glocks I think.

Optices are the future. The new guys/gals should train with optics. They should then be given basic training on iron sights so they can use them if necessary.

I have some optics that I'm trying to get comfortable with. They co-witness with irons. Unfortunately I still look for the irons by instinct. I've had a trainer tell my that old fuds like me should tape over the irons for training so I learn to look for the red dot.

Lasers can be great in low light, especially if you need to keep a wider view of what's going on, but I don't have a handgun with a laser mounted on it. Well my wife's little AR style 9mm has a laser and it's technically and handgun.

 

[chief38]

They should initially train on what they're going to use. Our dept was slow to accept semiautos. That was fine with me personally as revolvers were what I came up with and are even now still instinctive for me.

However the local accademy changed to semiautos. So when we were getting recruits fresh from accademy we were getting guys that were trained on semiautos plus the best guys, guys that were comming from a military, were comming from a semiauto background. Then we were forcing them to use revolvers. That's just stupid! Our dept went semiauto a fair number of years ago now. Currently Glocks I think.

Optices are the future. The new guys/gals should train with optics. They should then be given basic training on iron sights so they can use them if necessary.

I have some optics that I'm trying to get comfortable with. They co-witness with irons. Unfortunately I still look for the irons by instinct. I've had a trainer tell my that old fuds like me should tape over the irons for training so I learn to look for the red dot.

Lasers can be great in low light, especially if you need to keep a wider view of what's going on, but I don't have a handgun with a laser mounted on it. Well my wife's little AR style 9mm has a laser and it's technically and handgun.

Before I bought my kids a GPS for their car I was absolutely rigid about them learning how to read a map first. GPS units are great, but they do fail and not all roads are on the GPS. While they are very nice and convenient, they can not be 100% relied upon. A map doesn't break.

Maybe I am alone on this one but I also feel a laser emitting a red or green light gives up your position. If a bad guy is armed and looking where to shoot at you in the dark, a laser pretty much tells him where to aim (as does a flashlight mounted to a gun).

Wether electronic sights are the future or not, I still feel a newbie should learn the basics before relying on anything with batteries, switches and wires. I am sure LE agency's require a rookie to hold a valid drivers license before teaching them the tactical driving of a Police Cruiser in the line of duty. First things first - that is all I am getting at.

 

[tops]

Several years ago my wife got a S&W BG.380. and she was shooting some nice buckshot patterns using the open sights. I kept telling her she wasn't holding the gun on the target. She didn't believe me and kept doing the same thing. Later at home I thought about the laser and had her dry fire with the laser. That made it plain to her that she she was moving the gun when she pulled the trigger. It's my opinion that is the only reason to use a laser. Larry

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I have become friendly with a new neighbor and he is new to guns, EDC and shooting. He in fact only owns one gun and that is a Glock 43X.

Good luck with that.

 

[oink]

... I also feel a laser emitting a red or green light gives up your position. If a bad guy is armed and looking where to shoot at you in the dark, a laser pretty much tells him where to aim (as does a flashlight mounted to a gun).

Everything has tradeoffs. I think holding the flash light off to the side went out of style, tactically speaking. I think everyone went back to the crossed wrists thing. Lasers certainly have their place although I don't have much experience with them.

Wether electronic sights are the future or not, I still feel a newbie should learn the basics before relying on anything with batteries, switches and wires.

They should learn whatever is going to be primary for them first and most so that will be natural to them. But they should also learn the plan B.

I am sure LE agency's require a rookie to hold a valid drivers license before teaching them the tactical driving of a Police Cruiser in the line of duty. First things first - that is all I am getting at.

That's more of an apples and oranges thing to me. Of couse you have to learn to drive a car before you can drive patrol car.

 

[petepeterson]

My .32 Tomcat has Crimson Trace laser grips. Over 10 years and never a hiccup. But should they fail the sights have exact same POI and the gun is accurate at 25 yds. Nothing wrong with “technology” as long as it’s backed up.

That's how I feel about gizmos. I have a few ARs with Red Dots on them. And flip-up irons.

All of my scoped rifles have irons on them, too. Optic breaks? Remove optic. Problem solved.

I've played with other's RDS-equipped handguns on the range. I have no doubt I could learn to use them pretty well. I'm just not sure it's something I want to devote time to, even knowing it's probably the "future."

 

[Greyman50]

Marksmanship has a basic foundation that most here know. One has the Walk Before they Run. Attempt to teach him the basics and see how he progresses. 100 rounds just wont do much, get him to buy some cheap 9 mm as around $13.00/ 50 and back to the range several times. Might look up the local NRA instructor and get him in a class..

 

[chief38]

BTW, just so we are clear, my post was meant to address EDC, CCW handguns only.

 

[rockquarry]

BTW, just so we are clear, my post was meant to address EDC, CCW handguns only.

You make good points in your original post, but nowadays the prerequisite of learning basic shooting skills is lost on many; takes too much time and effort. Gadgetry is far more appealing to these folks.

 

[oink]

Ludites! I accept that I'll probably always be more comfortable with iron sights, although I'm trying to learn to use a dot optic due to my diminishing eyesight. However, the gadgetry of yesterday is the standard of today. I'm sure cartridge guns were considered unnecessary gadgetry to many when they appeared on the scene. And there could be many examples. Heck, who needs caps. You could run out and then where will you be. With a couple of spare flints you'll never need caps. There are still many that refuse to accept semiautos as anything other than unreliable, unnecessary gadgets. I say that while still having a preference for wheelguns, but I'm just old and revolvers are part of my DNA. Optics aren't just the future, they are now part of the now and the primary sighting system for many! You should train primarily with what you plan to use. However, familiarity with a backup option is wise.

 

[Denverd0n]

Understand your desire to limit conflict, chief38, but frankly I would have told him, "If you want me to teach you, then you start without the laser. If you won't start without the laser, then find someone else to teach you."

No need for any argument or conflict. Simple statement of conditions.

As for the argument that you should start out with all the gizmos you will eventually be using... There is practically NO field of endeavor where you do not start out with the basics, and then move on to the more advanced methodologies. If you want to be a physicist, you don't BEGIN by learning calculus. You would never get anywhere. You begin with simple addition and subtraction. And when you're trying to learn how to shoot a gun you have to begin with the basics: grip, sight alignment, trigger control. Otherwise you're never going to get anywhere!

 

[Brian Parrish]

I have become friendly with a new neighbor and he is new to guns, EDC and shooting. He in fact only owns one gun and that is a Glock 43X. That 43X is fitted with a trigger guard red laser and he asked me to bring him to the range yes...Again, I would encourage all of us participating in teaching new shooters the ropes to start with factory iron sights - at least on SD guns. Just my opinions of course......

1) I think that the issue is always skills before gear.
2) I think that it is a mistake in ANY discipline to insist on a piece of equipment against the advice of your teacher. If Providence has led you to a particular teacher, then He also wants you to know what that teacher is teaching you! You can change it all later after you graduate.
3) A red dot optic and a laser sight are NOT THE SAME THING! Just like Irons you can use them to do what you need to, but they each do it differently. The problem with a red dot optic is you must practice with it enough to see the dot quickly. The problem with a laser is that it won't remain still/quiet on the target. The problem with irons is your eye going back and forth between the target and the front sight.
4) The purpose of your sighting system is to tell you more about WHEN than where. If that laser is dancing all around the target never mind that. Just let fly! You should not even wait long enough to tell that the laser is dancing around. However, if you tell your student about the "deadly delay" of over-confirmation, he will immediately rush the shot and miss.
No rush!
No delay!
This is a hard concept for students to grasp.
5) Plenty of people are having battery issues with lasers like your friend's. Nobody is having the same issues with dot optics. Change the battery once a year you'll be fine. There are some problems with the screws breaking and then the optic flies off the gun.

I don't agree with you about teaching irons "first" though. You can learn laser first. The laser does not keep you from jerking the trigger, nor help you squeeze the trigger rapidly enough either. It does not hold the gun with proper grip or draw it rapidly enough from concealment. It does not control recoil or prevent the pistol from dropping too low as it comes back on target. Etc. Etc. It does enable you to keep on target while you are running laterally to your target. Rolling on the ground with no sight picture? No problem! Shooting from the hip with the offhand? Check! Overcoming wrong eye dominance? Whatchoomean wrong eye??

Thanks for the interesting post which makes many excellent and helpful points!
BrianD

 

[lrrifleman]

I think that Chief38 initiated the perfect thread to address neophyte shooters looking at combat-style shooting, be it for self-defense or competition. I think that a lively dialog is developing.

The problem that I see, that is leading neophyte shooters astray, are the Madison Avenue types. Initially, I thought that attaching a laser would be the best shooting aid for me, then I met "THE Shooting House"! Unfortunately, it took 5 years of training via the Adaptive Defensive Shooting Summit at the Sig Academy before I could take the Defensive Shooting Skills class which introduced me to the Shooting House, but it was worth the wait! We trained with Sig "BLUE" P320 UTM pistols equipped with RDOs. From the start, I requested that the RDO be removed from my pistol.

I learned many things from the Shoot house:
1) (for me), a "clean" pistol without the bells and whistles could be brought into action faster than a pistol wearing the latest doo-dads! I found that when the threat is within 3-4 yards, the sights were useless. All of my CQB shots were the product of point shooting.
2) the decision to draw and fire is made in a heart beat, you just don't have the time to weigh your options and decide whether the person before you is truly a threat. Pausing to decide how much of a threat the person before you really is will be the deciding factor over whether you live or die.
3) once you perceive a potential threat (IF you are afforded the luxury of time) is whether you will neutralize the threat, succumb to the threat, or retreat if you have the time, distance, and opportunity.
4) if you have not yet made the conscious decision that you are capable and willing to take a human life, you shouldn't be carrying a self-defense firearm, doing so will most likely get you killed.

 

[Greyman50]

Was a NRA instructor back in 70’s-80’s and remember many guys saying,” I just want to shoot, don’t need all this classroom”. I would tell them here’s your money back, see ya , hate to be ya. Women were more receptive and easier to instruct and several became outstanding shots. Way to much influence from tv, movies and online garbage now. Sadly it’s “ spray and prey”……