Talk me out of buying a Bodyguard 2.0 -

[Cheyenne WYO]

Well…. that doesn’t matter much to me. I’ve put enough of these Plus P rounds downrange to know they work in my BG2.

May I ask why you chose the +P over the standard pressure version of Underwood XD ammo? I have been using and testing the standard pressure version in multiple different .380s, and it outclasses any other .380 ammo I have shot out of the same guns. It even penetrated farther than my Sig P365 loaded with standard pressure 124 grain Gold Dots. I have more testing to do in my Bodyguard because the ammo does run slower than out of my other guns, but I am optimistic.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCwII0LhQHI[/ame]

NO hollow point or FMJ ammo I have shot through a Glock 42, Sig P365-380 or BG 2.0 could get through the steel. Hard cast solids can out of the Glock and Sig, but no luck so far with the BG 2.0.

 

[Captains1911]

Well…. that doesn’t matter much to me. I’ve put enough of these Plus P rounds downrange to know they work in my BG2.

From here on I’ll mostly just practice with ball ammo and non-Plus P offerings. But… ll carry my BG2 with Xtreme Penitrator Plus P’s.

Not to sound pompous, but…. if my BG2 breaks i’ll just send it back to S&W for service. If they won’t fix it I’ll just buy another one.

You do you, but it’s still a safety risk, and newcomers who may not know any better might read this and should know.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

If you don't like it........Don't buy it........When making a purchase ....NO ONE"S opinion matters but yours.

 

[DeepPenetration]

You do you, but it’s still a safety risk, and newcomers who may not know any better might read this and should know.

Fair comment Capt.

For me to carry any short barrel .380 for SD… I’ll always choose the fastest & heaviest round that will reliably cycle through my pistol; one that’s capable of providing acceptable accuracy.

Full transparency. If I couldn’t run Underwood .380 Plus P’s thru my BG-2, I'd probably just carry one of my micro-9’s, but then there’s this... there isn’t a micro-9 that exists that can match the BG-2’s size, weight, and ergonomics; likely never will be.

I understand your safety concerns. But let me ask you this. Do you know what the max pressure is for the .380 ACP? You might; you might not. But I know with certainty it is 21,500 p.s.i. (SAAMI)

Now… let me ask you this. Do you know what the max pressure is for the.380 ACP Plus P? There is none. SAAMI offers no specs for the 380 Plus P; in fact, they refuse to even recognize it exists.

So… please tell me again what the maximum average pressure limit is for a .380 Plus P, and please tell me how Underwood +P loads would compare.

Cheers

 

[tarheel13]

Also, I tried four boxes of the Defenders, after removing the feed ramp humps polishing it and still got one or two hangups per box. Loading them with two flute downward seems to help the feeding problem,.

That's interesting. So the flute cuts are arranged so two of them are on the left and right side, equally near the bottom? The alternative that you avoided was having one flute cut straight down. Do I have that right?

 

[agksimon]

That's interesting. So the flute cuts are arranged so two of them are on the left and right side, equally near the bottom? The alternative that you avoided was having one flute cut straight down. Do I have that right?

Correct. One flute touching the feed ramp wasn't enough to prevent hangups. I had read on another forum about someone trying two high side of the flutes hitting the feed ramp and didn't have any further problems. I tried it and got the same results. I still won't bet my life on them and at $30 to $40 a box of 20, can't afford to keep testing them.

 

[tarheel13]

Correct. One flute touching the feed ramp wasn't enough to prevent hangups. I had read on another forum about someone trying two high side of the flutes hitting the feed ramp and didn't have any further problems. I tried it and got the same results. I still won't bet my life on them and at $30 to $40 a box of 20, can't afford to keep testing them.

Right, I can't afford that many rounds just to test. Do you see the same effect if you hand cycle the rounds through the pistol?

 

[agksimon]

Right, I can't afford that many rounds just to test. Do you see the same effect if you hand cycle the rounds through the pistol?

It's actually worse when hand cycling. Also, they aren't crimped very well, as when they hangup, it pushes the bullet up into the case and not safe to use.

 

[tarheel13]

It's actually worse when hand cycling. Also, they aren't crimped very well, as when they hangup, it pushes the bullet up into the case and not safe to use.

Thanks so much for that information. This is really important. So when you have a hangup while firing, have you ever marked the cartridge to see if it hangs consistently? That is, is the problem just the orientation of the flutes, or is it also related to some variance in the bullet or case? But if the bullet is pushed into the case every time, you would never have the chance to check that.

I am trying to use Underwood Extreme Penetrator which has a different weight (90 grains) and a different flute cut. I've had some hangups on hand cycling (haven't been to the range yet) but I don't see any bullets pushed into the case. So I'm thinking of doing a more systematic check, keeping records on the orientation and repeatability of the round. Wow, you have really been helpful.

 

[GnarlsR2]

Perhaps my knowledge and experience needs a dose of education.

Does a heavier grain bullet create more or less recoil?

Does a +P rated bullet produce more or less recoil than a standard pressure round?

If a heavier grain bullet creates MORE recoil AND a +P rated round creates more recoil, does that make the BG2’s small size and weight more accurate to a POA/POI or less accurate?

Why would I want to choose, for self-defense, a bullet type that is “fluted” or whatever, that may not fire when I pull the trigger?

What scientific test shows that a fluted bullet produces more penetration than a PMC Bronze 90 gr FMJ?

Is a fluted bullet more lethal than a full metal jacket, Federal HST 99 grain JHP, or Hornady Critical Defense 90 gr FTX?

 

[tarheel13]

Perhaps my knowledge and experience needs a dose of education.

You probably know more than I do, but since you seem to have written this in response to my post, I will give my opionion.

Does a heavier grain bullet create more or less recoil?

If all else is equal, it would give more actual recoil. But all else is probably not equal since the powder charge may be different. And felt recoil is something else altogether.

Does a +P rated bullet produce more or less recoil than a standard pressure round?

Probably more actual recoil.

If a heavier grain bullet creates MORE recoil AND a +P rated round creates more recoil, does that make the BG2’s small size and weight more accurate to a POA/POI or less accurate?

I don't think it makes any difference if you are shooting slowly with careful aim. If you are shooting rapidly, the higher bullet weight and +P rating would reduce accuracy, but that would be true in any pistol. The BG2 is light but has other features that appear to reduce recoil movement and time back on target.

Why would I want to choose, for self-defense, a bullet type that is “fluted” or whatever, that may not fire when I pull the trigger?

Obviously you would not.

What scientific test shows that a fluted bullet produces more penetration than a PMC Bronze 90 gr FMJ?

I've seen controlled trials that show that but they were not "scientific". I'm not trying to convince you to try anything.

Is a fluted bullet more lethal than a full metal jacket, Federal HST 99 grain JHP, or Hornady Critical Defense 90 gr FTX?

Good question. I'd like to know the answer. Pretty sure there are no "lethality" studies... only extrapolation from shooting into gel or sides of pork.

I've only just bought my BG2 and I'm trying to learn as much as possible. If you have your own answers to your questions, I'd love to hear them.

 

[Cheyenne WYO]

Perhaps my knowledge and experience needs a dose of education.

Does a heavier grain bullet create more or less recoil?

Does a +P rated bullet produce more or less recoil than a standard pressure round?

If a heavier grain bullet creates MORE recoil AND a +P rated round creates more recoil, does that make the BG2’s small size and weight more accurate to a POA/POI or less accurate?

Why would I want to choose, for self-defense, a bullet type that is “fluted” or whatever, that may not fire when I pull the trigger?

What scientific test shows that a fluted bullet produces more penetration than a PMC Bronze 90 gr FMJ?

Is a fluted bullet more lethal than a full metal jacket, Federal HST 99 grain JHP, or Hornady Critical Defense 90 gr FTX?

The answer to most of your questions is "it depends." Bullet weight, bullet type and pressure are variables among others that influence things like recoil and penetration.

The thing that allows the fluted bullet to penetrate more may relate to the flutes, but it more likely is the result of it being made up of pure copper, which is harder than soft lead used in hollow points and FMJ ammo. Hard cast lead is also harder than hollow points and FMJ ammo and penetrates deeper. Also, copper is lighter than lead so the bullet tends to be lighter and can be driven faster.

My unscientific tests, other than that the media is the same, show that Xtreme Penetrator and Xtreme Defender ammo as loaded by Underwood out penetrates any soft core lead JHP or FMJ on the market that I have shot so far. (I have shot a LOT of them.) Hard cast lead ammo also performs as well when shot out of a Glock 42 and Sig P365-380, but it did not work when I shot it out of the BG 2.0 even though the velocity is about the same. Go figure. XP and XD ammo are the closest I can get in .380 to duty ammo in a duty caliber firearm in terms of penetration.

 

[Cheyenne WYO]

It's actually worse when hand cycling. Also, they aren't crimped very well, as when they hangup, it pushes the bullet up into the case and not safe to use.

I have been meaning to email Underwood about bullet setback with the 68 grain .380 XD ammo. I won't chamber them more than once in any of my guns, which is kinda ridiculous considering the price. I think a part of it is that the bullet is so short that there is very little of the case putting pressure on the projectile. I don't know if attempting to crimp more or sizing the cases a little tighter would help. (P.S. I also find that Hornady Custom and American Gunner XTP .380 ammo exhibits a lot of setback in my guns.)

I have some of the Lehigh XD projectiles that I intend to load in new Starline brass to see if I can do a better job of preventing setback.

Also, because setback can raise pressures, that would be something to consider when choosing to use +P ammo in the gun.

 

[Beju]

What scientific test shows that a fluted bullet produces more penetration than a PMC Bronze 90 gr FMJ?

Is a fluted bullet more lethal than a full metal jacket, Federal HST 99 grain JHP, or Hornady Critical Defense 90 gr FTX?

A solid copper alloy fluted bullet can provide more penetration than a non-bonded FMJ that fragments/deforms. However, .380 typically lacks the velocity for that to be a major issue when hitting bone. In theory, the profile may also cause more wounding than a pointier/rounder FMJ bullet. I doubt that there's any evidence that the flutes have any magical energy transfer effects at handgun velocities in particular. The modern consensus is that tissue cutting/crushing (not energy transfer) is the primary wounding factor with common self defense caliber handgun bullets.

A solid copper alloy fluted bullet may be more lethal than 99gr .380 HST, simply because said HST has typically been an inconsistent gel test performer at expansion and penetration from short barrels. Wounding profile of the fluted bullet and HST that fails to expand is probably pretty similar. A fluted bullet will be preferable to an HST that expands beautifully and only penetrates 8" in bare gel (which is all that ShootingtheBull410 got in his tests).

That being said, the newer Hydra Shok Deep may be the hot ticket. It seems to be doing quite well in various tests.

Critical Defense has been pretty consistent in various tests, with penetration meeting the lower end (~13") of FBI spec (12-18") with reliable expansion.

It's important to remember that 1" of gel penetration is not directly analogous to 1" of penetration in every body. Actual bodies have more elastic structures (skin, organs) and more durable structures (bone) than ballistic gel. The amount of skin/organ elasticity, muscle density, and bone density also varies by person.

 

[Cheyenne WYO]

A solid copper alloy fluted bullet can provide more penetration than a non-bonded FMJ that fragments/deforms. However, .380 typically lacks the velocity for that to be a major issue when hitting bone. In theory, the profile may also cause more wounding than a pointier/rounder FMJ bullet. I doubt that there's any evidence that the flutes have any magical energy transfer effects at handgun velocities in particular. The modern consensus is that tissue cutting/crushing (not energy transfer) is the primary wounding factor with common self defense caliber handgun bullets.

A solid copper alloy fluted bullet may be more lethal than 99gr .380 HST, simply because said HST has typically been an inconsistent gel test performer at expansion and penetration from short barrels. Wounding profile of the fluted bullet and HST that fails to expand is probably pretty similar. A fluted bullet will be preferable to an HST that expands beautifully and only penetrates 8" in bare gel (which is all that ShootingtheBull410 got in his tests).

That being said, the newer Hydra Shok Deep may be the hot ticket. It seems to be doing quite well in various tests.

Critical Defense has been pretty consistent in various tests, with penetration meeting the lower end (~13") of FBI spec (12-18") with reliable expansion.

It's important to remember that 1" of gel penetration is not directly analogous to 1" of penetration in every body. Actual bodies have more elastic structures (skin, organs) and more durable structures (bone) than ballistic gel. The amount of skin/organ elasticity, muscle density, and bone density also varies by person.

I agree entirely with your first and last paragraphs. With respect to the middle, my personal belief, that many do not agree with, is that the benefit of expansion does not outweigh the lack of penetration. The FBI weights its tests in favor of barrier blind penetration. The only real one shot stop is a CNS hit, which means the brain or the spinal column. If someone is trying to rob or kill me, my bullet may have to travel through a forearm before even getting to the torso.

Expansion acts like a parachute. Duty ammo in a duty caliber has the power to push through while the parachute is deploying and deployed. The .380 doesn't have that ability. A perfect mushroom that doesn't reach where it needs to reach is not as effective as no mushroom that immediately stops a bad guy's opportunity to hurt people.

 

[GnarlsR2]

The answer to most of your questions is "it depends."

LOL... whenever I read "it depends", "Yeah... and I hope I'm pushing daisies before I have to wear them.

I enjoy reading about the many different experiences, levels of knowledge, and ongoing “testing”, and anecdotal opinions.

Thank you to all who are sharing.

I assume I’m like most BG2 buyers looking for a very reliable, highly concealable pocket carry.

For my defense carry, my primary focus has been on controllable and repeatable accuracy at the A-Zone with 3 follow-up shots in the A or C-Zones for an 18”x24” Silhouette spatter target 4 to 7 yards. I would like to be able to do that with my right hand and my non-dominant left hand.

At 10 yards and 15 yards, I will be happy if I can hit the C-Zone with my 2-hand grip.

At this point, until I can see some convincing facts, I am not concerned about recoil, ballistic stats, bullet type, or penetration. If I cannot hit the hypothetical threat, the other factors don’t mean diddly.

My accuracy (POA.POI) so far with the BG2 is not where I’m comfortable. It feels good in my grip, especially with the 12-round mag. It’s very well-balanced in my hand. It feels like it is a little more snappy than my P365 Micro 9mm. One YouTuber’s BG2 review said regarding the recoil, “it’s like a 22LR”.. Sorry dude!, my Keltec P17’s recoil is nothing like my BG2.

According to some experts, most short distance self-defense encounters I will most likely only be a “point and shoot” and not have time to find a sight.

I am comfortably accurate out to 25 yards with my P365 Micro with a Lima green laser and my P365XL with Romeo Red Dot, beyond that distance I have not shot them.

Next range day I will be doing more self-testing and working to “certify” my BG2 as my first choice RAT (Reliable And Trustworthy) pocket carry.

 

[Beju]

I agree entirely with your first and last paragraphs. With respect to the middle, my personal belief, that many do not agree with, is that the benefit of expansion does not outweigh the lack of penetration. The FBI weights its tests in favor of barrier blind penetration. The only real one shot stop is a CNS hit, which means the brain or the spinal column. If someone is trying to rob or kill me, my bullet may have to travel through a forearm before even getting to the torso.

Expansion acts like a parachute. Duty ammo in a duty caliber has the power to push through while the parachute is deploying and deployed. The .380 doesn't have that ability. A perfect mushroom that doesn't reach where it needs to reach is not as effective as no mushroom that immediately stops a bad guy's opportunity to hurt people.

Perhaps I should needed to expound more or write more clearly, but my belief is that extra penetration is preferable to big expansion and shallow penetration (especially in your outstretched bad guy arms scenario). .380 is unlikely to have the oomph to punch through a center mass torso hit and still be a substantial risk to anyone on the other side of it. We're not talking about 10mm Auto hunting bullets here.

 

[Cheyenne WYO]

Perhaps I should needed to expound more or write more clearly,

Perhaps you wrote clearly and I misunderstood. I reread your second paragraph and understand and agree with it.

 

[dben002]

You obviously do want one or you would not have made this posting....so go ahead and get one...preferably one that is currently in a LGS so you can inspect it before actually purchasing it....but either way even if defective (and they are not all defective from the factory)...send it in and S&W will make it correct. Case closed....

 

[ladder13]

The OP purchased a BG2.0 about a month ago.He did have to send it back once.