Musings on the M1 carbine

[mkk41]

Are M1 Carbines on the bad gun hit-list in the Assault Weapon debate going on now?,,or are they too old fashion.
Maybe Andrew Cuomo will be coming to take it away.

The M1 Carbine might get no respect , but it gets the attention of the anti's everytime.

Pres BO nixed a bunch of USGI carbines coming back because they have the dredded detachable 15rd magazine and can even take a 30rd banana clip!

It was probably the "assault weapon" of choice for the revolutionaries back in the 60s-70s. I remember seening photos of Black Panthers and those SLA clowns that alledgedly kidnapped Patty Hearst with an M1 carbine complete with 'stock pouch'.

 

[Mike LaNier]

I spent five months in 'Indian Country' west of DaNang back in 1965-66, and carried an M-1 carbine as well as a 1911. My carbine was a great tool, never let me down, and I own one today that's 80 years old and still shoots very well. I had a bit of brain-fade one afternoon and bought a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 Carbine. Whoa, Nellie! Substantial recoil, but the flame from the barrel was downright intimidating! It can be used to start campfires, for sure. Not nearly as much fun as the M-1 carbine, for sure.

 

[Venom6]

I spent five months in 'Indian Country' west of DaNang back in 1965-66, and carried an M-1 carbine as well as a 1911. My carbine was a great tool, never let me down, and I own one today that's 80 years old and still shoots very well. I had a bit of brain-fade one afternoon and bought a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 Carbine. Whoa, Nellie! Substantial recoil, but the flame from the barrel was downright intimidating! It can be used to start campfires, for sure. Not nearly as much fun as the M-1 carbine, for sure.

Hey, Mike, thank you for that interesting post. This thread is over 12 years old so you might not get a lot of response, but I would like to know a bit more about your time "in-country." What unit/job description? How many mags/15s or 30s? What uniform? Would have to disagree, though, on the .30 Carbine Blackhawk's recoil; I had one and found it to be negligible, but agree wholeheartedly that the blast is epic. When I realized a 110 grain bullet at 1450 fps was .357 country, I sold it.

 

[M29since14]

Correct. I suppose it will do, but I don’t know of much to recommend the carbine round in a revolver. I never got the chance to chronograph mine, but 1450 sounds about right. Mine was adopted by a friend who was a retired Vietnam-era Marine who also admired the M-1 Carbine. He just had to have a revolver to go along with Carbine.

 

[Greyman50]

Interesting thread. Years ago I collected 30 Cal. Carbines, had every mfg but a nice enough IBM. Sold all off keeping a nice Inland which I shoot “ once in a blue moon”. I sure would not want to get shot with one. Killed a few deer back on the farm with soft point round. Have read 100s of books on WWII and many have complaints regarding the 30 Cal. Carbine but many praised it so tend to think it was all about bullet placement.

 

[lawandorder]

Another one who missed this thread when it came out. I enjoyed all the comments on both sides. You love them or hate them. Since I was 14 years old I have owned at least one example of two popular firearms, the Browning Hi Power and the U.S. M1 Carbine. Carried both at work at times and used the carbine deer hunting when I was young.
I do believe in both and my ability to use them effectively if need be.

Lots of members from the Absent Comrades Role on this thread, miss them.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

During WWII the Ordinance Department chambered an S&W N frame in 30 Carbine. Kicked too much, too much muzzle blast.
The M-2 Carbine could be considered the first "assault rifle"-selective fire, intermediate round, etc.

 

[AJ]

Just saw this thread for the first time. When it came out my interest was waning in M1 Carbines. I had collected all the different manufacturers (except Irwin Pederson). I liked them. Then other things grabbed my interest, such as handguns. Consider myself a handgunner more than a rifeman. Got rid of all except one that my Aunt had given me that had been my Uncles. Still have that one. Neat effective little rifles.

 

[Faulkner]

I've used one with good effect on whitetail deer, always under a hundred yards with soft point bullets that I load.

 

[M29since14]

Seeing AJ’s CMP invoice for over $1100 for three reminded me that I think we ordered a shipment of three from Southern Ohio Gun way back when (probably in the early ‘80s) and I believe I paid $170 for mine. It is not in the greatest condition, but it is perfectly serviceable and surprisingly accurate. I wish I had bought all three back then, but of course hadn’t the money to devote to surplus rifles. I think of the three received none of them were in showroom condition - all about the same, all with minor defects. Mine had an incorrect upper handguard.

 

[Glenn R. McMannly]

The reliability of the carbine was hampered by the flimsy magazines and weakly cycling gas action.

 

[AJ]

The reliability of the carbine was hampered by the flimsy magazines and weakly cycling gas action.

First that I had heard of those problems?

 

[BB57]

I currently have three of them, an Inland, a Saginaw, and a Quality Hardware. Here's a couple of them.

I have a box of 30 or so surplus 15 round GI magazines, about half of them purchased NOS in the wrap along with a half dozen surplus 30 round magazines. Back in the day they were about $5 each for the 15 round magazines and $15 for the 30 round magazines. US military surplus M1 carbines in very good/excellent condition could be had for $125. Lake City .30 M1 carbine ball was $5 per box of 50.

-----

The myth that the M1 Carbine could not penetrate Chinese padded cotton winter clothing when it was snow and ice crusted never seems to die. The reality is that it will go through four separate panels of IIIA soft body armor, and that the myth is more likely to be the result of skinny Chinese soldiers inside bulky clothing where an observed hit on a big bulky parka didn't always mean a hit on the much smaller target of the soldier inside.

-----

.30 Carbine from a revolver is just obnoxious in terms of report and flash. Worse, even in a 7.5" Blackhawk you're losing about 500-600 fps - 1990 fps all the way down to around 1400-1500 fps. You're far better off at that point with a .357 Mag.

 

[BB57]

First that I had heard of those problems?

The reliability of the carbine was hampered by the flimsy magazines and weakly cycling gas action.

Do you have a credible source? After market magazines have frequently been an issue, but issue magazines are solid.

The longer, heavier 30 round magazines with its increased weight is more dimensionally sensitive, but again GI magazines function fine.

The M2 Carbine did get a heavier round topped bolt as well as the stronger "pot belly" stock, but assuming they are run appropriately wet with grease in the correct places, they cycle just fine.

In the 1960s and 1970s the GI carbines remained very popular in law enforcement as patrol carbines, in part due to their excellent reliability and in part due to their size and excellent handling.

 

[AJ]

Do you have a credible source? After market magazines have frequently been an issue, but issue magazines are solid.

The longer, heavier 30 round magazines with its increased weight is more dimensionally sensitive, but again GI magazines function fine.

The M2 Carbine did get a heavier round topped bolt as well as the stronger "pot belly" stock, but assuming they are run appropriately wet with grease in the correct places, they cycle just fine.

In the 1960s and 1970s the GI carbines remained very popular in law enforcement as patrol carbines, in part due to their excellent reliability and in part due to their size and excellent handling.

The round bolt as I understand it was brought about by the M2. The bolt had more strength to absorb the rapid fire of full auto. If I am wrong someone will be along to tell me so.

Broke into my library. "The new design eliminated a number of machining steps and creatied a better bearing surface with the receiver for a smoother operation. The new design also lessened the stress at the bolt lug." from "U.S. M1 Carbines, Wartime Production by Craig Riesch". The last reference about stress on the bolt lug was from the M2's full auto mode of operation.

 

[decuerno]

I had a carbine and loved it… acquired it at a gun show for reasonable money back in the mid-80’s…..but I also had a brother whose gf had inherited a ton of .30 carbine ammo when her Dad died…so I could afford to feed it.

Then one day someone educated me that I didn’t have a M1 Carbine… Looking under the rear sight where it was difficult to see…. I had a Winchester M2 that had it’s disconnector operating-arm removed. (I knew the stock had an open-space on the left side of the receiver but didn’t give it much thought as Carbines weren’t my particular interest…merely bought it as a coyote gun for the ranch.)

When my dealer-friend pointed out the problem with owning a M2 without paperwork I surrendered it to a judge friend of mine who said he had a route to legality and I never looked back.

When I later wished I had another carbine…. I realized a better solution was a late-model Mini-14.

 

[Matt_X]

It's always interesting to hear about the experiences from those who have carried them for work. Sadly fewer around today than when this thread started and its too bad some of the photos have be lost.
Updating the link for the frozen clothing experiment posted on the first page.

https://www.theboxotruth.com/threads/the-box-o-truth-36-frozen-clothing-and-the-box-o-truth.360/?post_id=1034&nested_view=1&sortby=oldest#post-1034

Regarding magzines. There does seem to be fairly common experience that the magazines are one of the most common causes of misfeeds. The issues typically are bent or damaged lips, damage to the catch nibs, and springs installed backward. If the magazine sits too low or is slightly angled its more difficult for the next round to feed. IIRC these improvements were not considered critical and there was no requirement to replace the old ones.

The weight of the 30 round magazines did require the three point catch, but many M1s remained in service without them.
The Carbine Collectors Club is calling the three point catch as Type IV
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/triggergroup4.html

The round bolt was standardized before the select-fire carbines were produced. It's not a requirement for the select-fire modified M1 or M2, although it incorporates some improvements that would make it preferred given a choice. One reason a flat bolt might have been retained during a conversion might have been changing would require headspacing.
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/bolts.html

 

[Matt_X]

I've never heard the short tappet gas system described as weak cycling 'til now. I can't help on that one.

I am sorry but I disagree with the description of .30 Carbine as an intermediate rifle cartridge. My understanding is both an intermediate and high power rifle cartridge by definition uses a necked case. That said, as far as I can find, even though its power is similar to .357 Magnum, IDPA, IPSC, and similar sanctioning bodies do not allow .30 carbine in their Pistol Caliber Carbine category.

If we want to use a more recent military use category for the .30 Carbine M1, PDW is a pretty good fit.

 

[Glenn R. McMannly]

I've never heard the short tappet gas system described as weak cycling 'til now. I can't help on that one.

I am sorry but I disagree with the description of .30 Carbine as an intermediate rifle cartridge. My understanding is both an intermediate and high power rifle cartridge by definition uses a necked case. That said, as far as I can find, even though its power is similar to .357 Magnum, IDPA, IPSC, and similar sanctioning bodies do not allow .30 carbine in their Pistol Caliber Carbine category.

If we want to use a more recent military use category for the .30 Carbine M1, PDW is a pretty good fit.

The tappet system is weak. It was used for its slimness and litheness.

 

[mckenney99]

Unlike M14/M16 magazines. the M1 Carbine magazines were meant to be consumables. If they got reused a few times that was a plus, as soon as troops started to experience any feed issues, the magazines were to be pitched/destroyed and the ammo/weapons supply always had a ready supply of new magazines available. That is why they are generally so flimsy and why for many, many years you could find new in the wrap surplus magazines everywhere for cheap.