Alternative to .38 Special Recoil

[brians356]

Shooting gel means very little if not done correctly, and even when it is done correctly, there are a lot of variables that still come into play. Shooting water jugs, wet phone books, and similar media is fun, but that is about the end of it.

Fair enough. But other than FBI style gel test (w/ clothing barrier) to observe penetration, consistency of same, and expansion, (see LuckyGunner Labs) how else do we have any idea about the performance of a particular cartridge? Gotta go somewhere.

There are "premium" defense rounds from trusted manufacturers which are wildly inconsistent in performance. I simply cannot just assume anything. I'm curious how you ascertain you're carrying a defense round that performs in even the top quartile of the scores of choices.

In a time when more people are carrying, and so many more women, and 22 Mag, 32 Auto, even 22 LR are touted as "better than nothing", I'd carry a 32-cal 98-gr wadcutter traveling nearly 700 fps from a snubbie without qualms. A 148-gr 38-cal WC at 700+ fps as well.
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[Autonomous]

The issue with wadcutters is lack of expansion. Even hollow point bullets penetrate through parts of the body, but with a wadcutter there is no expansion at all...

The thread is about reduced recoil .38 Special loads.
In this category the chances of finding a hollow point that will reliably expand is nil. Even if one did expand, the low velocity-energy left would not offer much penetration.
Fluted bullets such as the ARX may offer some advantage over conventional solids. Frangible bullets do not penetrate well at all.
The fact is low recoil .38 caliber cartridges do not offer a lot of options. A solid low velocity round will do the job better than nothing.

 

[kelljor]

Can you cite an instance where someone got into any legal trouble from carrying handloads?

Seems to me the one person who could answer that might be Ayoob. Maybe research his articles?

 

[magnum0710]

Seems to me the one person who could answer that might be Ayoob. Maybe research his articles?

The one case Ayoob normally points to is the Daniel Bias case. Mr and Mrs Bias were from New Jersey (there's a hint) and Mrs Bias committed suicide using a 38 that Mr Bias had loaded with light handloads.

The prosecution said it couldn't have been suicide, the powder burn wasn't consistent with suicide, she had to have been shot from across the room. The problem was they tested this theory with full power factory ammo. Your own personal handload logs can't be admitted into evidence, it's considered manufacturing evidence which was another issue in the case. Daniel Bias was innocent but IIRC he spent 10 years in prison before he was proven innocent.

The thing is, this was New Jersey which isn't exactly a 2a friendly state and this wasn't a self defense case. I don't know of any bona fide self defense case where the use of hand loads was an issue, Jim Cirillo was on the NYPD stakeout squad and carried his own hand loaded wadcutters. Granted that was in 70s but this fear of handloads has only been a thing in recent history. Bill Jordan carried his own 38/44 hand loads in the line of duty also.

I'm not saying everyone should carry their own hand loads, I still carry factory ammo myself 99% of the time. What I'm saying is the fear is over blown IMO. If you're in a 2a friendly state/city and you have a reason for doing so I don't think you have anything to worry about. I do carry my own handloads for woods carry and animal defense. Why? Because in my neck of the woods we don't have brown bears and black bears are only a minor concern. Most 357 magnum outdoors loads are hard cast 180 grain grizzly loads, if you want a 158 grain hard cast SWC your factory options are 38+p (Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Doubletap) or you have to load your own. I prefer a 158 myself so if I want a hard cast 158 grain 357 load my only option is to load it myself.

 

[Kal.38]

The rounds are not the cheapest but plenty of 38 long colt can be had. It's used in 38spl guns for cowboy action all the time. Shoots a 158gr RNL@650 150ft lbs or a 105gr HI-TEK coated lead@ 650 100ft lbs.
I fired a few 158s in M10. They are powderpuff loads and fun to shoot. I suspect they would be about perfect for a J frame. Then you could keep and enjoy those classics.

 

[Jerry in SC]

"38 Short" is 38 S&W Short. It's also properly referred to as 9×20mmR, .38 Colt NP (New Police), or .38/200. The larger 38 cartridges are 38 Long Colt, and 38 Special.

Magtech refers to their 38G product as 38 Spl Short (Special Short).
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Lost River Ammunition Company sells a bunch of .38 Short Colt ammo. Much easier to eject than a full length .38 Special case. 125 grain flat point bullet @850 fps. It’s not exactly a light load, but it’s not bad in a steel J frame.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

A word of caution. Do not use anything but factory ammo in a firearm that you are going to carry. Handloads become a big issue if and by chance you find yourself in a court of law defending yourself.

Having had to testify in Grand Jury's on police shootings, not only do I agree with the above, I keep my personal carry pure stock. No fancy grips, springs or action jobs. A range toy might have an aftermarket RDS and a performance trigger but I'm careful about my carry. I know I've just offended some here. That's OK, you do you. I like simple.

 

[Tabby Lynn]

Having had to testify in Grand Jury's on police shootings, not only do I agree with the above, I keep my personal carry pure stock. No fancy grips, springs or action jobs. A range toy might have an aftermarket RDS and a performance trigger but I'm careful about my carry. I know I've just offended some here. That's OK, you do you. I like simple.

I whole heartedly agree with you other than the exception of worrying about offending someone. There is nothing you can say or do that will not offend someone's tender sensibilities somewhere. So why care about it. They don't matter and their ideas probably offend all the rest of us. I gave up being politically correct decades ago. Say it like it is, some of us will agree, others won't care what you say or think and the ones who are offended simply don't matter.

 

[brians356]

I whole heartedly agree with you other than the exception of worrying about offending someone.

He didn't strike me as worried. Politeness is so rare now, it draws attention to itself.
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[Neumann]

The answer to .38 SPL recoil is (a) an heavier revolver, or (b) lesser ballistics. Personally, I'm inclined to carry .357M, in a 38 oz, 3" 686+. The same ballistics has about the same felt recoil in a 28 oz, semi-auto pistol. (Recoil = dp/dt. Stretch the time, less recoil)

 

[elgatodeacero]

Isn’t the answer something like Hornady .38 Special Lite?

Seems to have good performance…….

Hornady Critical Defense Lite 38 Special 90 Grain FTX Denim and Clear Gel Test | Oklahoma City | H&H Shooting Sports

H&H Shooting Sports is Oklahoma’s Headquarters for Guns & Gear with the best selection of shotguns, pistols & rifles from Sig Sauer, Glock, Browning, & more.

hhshootingsports.com

 

[JimCunn]

Recently, I decided that I would go back to revolvers for concealed carry. After a shooting session, I decided that due to hand issues the .38 Special recoil was too much for me. I’ve been thinking of alternatives to the .38 Special. I had a S&W 940 but dumped it fairly quickly do to extraction issues. I’m also concerned about bullet pull/separation in the 9mm. How does the recoil of .32 H&R Magnum compare to .38 Special in a J frame revolver? What early model S&W revolvers were chambered in.32 H&R Magnum? Were there any all steel models? All steel/metal hammer less models?

 

[JimCunn]

I've got 3 airweight .38Sp J-frames converted to 9mm. I love them, but recoil is vicious. I've never had a problem with crimp jumping though.

 

[brians356]

Isn’t the answer something like Hornady .38 Special Lite?

Seems to have good performance…….

Hornady Critical Defense Lite 38 Special 90 Grain FTX Denim and Clear Gel Test | Oklahoma City | H&H Shooting Sports

H&H Shooting Sports is Oklahoma’s Headquarters for Guns & Gear with the best selection of shotguns, pistols & rifles from Sig Sauer, Glock, Browning, & more.

hhshootingsports.com

Not according to Chris Baker (LuckyGunner). Inadequate penetration from 4-in barrel, and (ironically) slightly better (but not reliably) from a 2-in barrel, owing to less expansion. But as the saying goes "better than nothing".



Compare to the next step up, Hornady 110-gr FTX Critical Defense:


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[THE PILGRIM]

Shoot the heaviest 38- 357 you comfortably carry.
Move down on ammo - like the 38 Wadcutters already mentioned.

 

[HardToHandle]

Not according to Chris Baker (LuckyGunner). Inadequate penetration from 4-in barrel, and (ironically) slightly better (but not reliably) from a 2-in barrel, owing to less expansion. But as the saying goes "better than nothing".

View attachment 772806

Compare to the next step up, Hornady 110-gr FTX Critical Defense:

View attachment 772808
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First, Lucky Gunner is a valuable resource. Adds to a relative discussion, even if not perfect data.

Second, I have used the Hornady 90gr and the 110gr rounds. They are very low recoil. I find them comfortable in my Airweight Model 12, more so than 148gr wadcutters @ 800fps +/-. They’re softballs - the Hornady 110gr is noticeable but mild. The 90gr rounds are extremely light recoiling. More than .22LR, but largely manageable even in an aluminum J Frame.

The nature of the Hornady bullets are quite short but conical, likely to keep the weight of the projectile so light. The relative better/deeper penetration from a shorter 2” barrel seems consistent. There’s also a polymer plug in the Hornady hollow point bullets, supposedly to aid expansion, but at lower velocity, probably acts as a round nose.

My use case for 110gr Hornadys is for speed strip reloads. I cannot seem to load a flat button-front Wadcutter in a hurry. The conical bullet shape is pretty smooth to load under some pressure. The little polymer tips prevent any hollow point hang up on the extractor star.

 

[elgatodeacero]

Whatever is chosen will have to sacrifice terminal performance for light recoil - no free lunch.

I think the Hornady 90 and 110 grain loads offer good performance considering the low recoil and decent penetration.

My preference in .38 Special is a Federal Gold Medal Match 148 grain wad cutter, one of +P FBI LSWC HP loads from any US manufacturer, or a 170 grain LSWC with 5.0 grains of Unique.

 

[lkabug]

Several ammunition manufacturers currently produce ammo specifically designed for short barrel revolvers. Will make a difference in felt recoil.
Check out speer gold dot short barrel and Hornady critical defense short barrel .

 

[CajunBass]

I tried a couple of 32 revolvers. Depending on which 32, the recoil is more or less than a 38. The guns were steel frame Taurus six shots, with a 2" and a 3" barrel.

327 Federal Magnum...WOW...that was an eye opender. As hard or even harder than any 38 Specil I've fired. The plus side is you get an extra round over most 38 J-frame size revolvers.

32 H&R Magnum. Not as eye opening as the 327 Federal, but no pussycat either. In the steel frame Taurus, I'd say they were maybe a little softer shooting than standard 38's.

32 S&W Long. A pussycat. OK, it recoils more than a 22, but not a lot more. Fun to shoot and reload for though.

For my purposes, I consider my experience with a 32, to be a failed experiment.

Just for comparison. 30 Super Carry. Not too far behind a 9mm if any. Recoil is about the same even in a gun the same size (S&W EZ). Blast is probably more.

I've gone to 380 myself, but in a locked breach gun. I've got a S&W 380 EZ, a Glock 42 (380), and a Sig 365-380. They are all three much softer shooting than a 38 revolver. I can shoot all three as acurately as I can anything, even with the arthritus in my hands. Even the G-42 holds a couple more rounds (6+1) than a J-frame. I've also got a Browning BDA 380 from many years ago. A bigger, heavier, all metal blowback semi, it is best described as "snappy" even with run of the mill "practice ammo." Still a fantastic gun.

 

[brians356]

Re: 380 ACP, lots of loads tested here. Hard to beat Hornady 90-gr XTP or Remington 88-gr HTP, but Hornady 90-gr FTX is there.

Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data

Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads in ballistic gel with analysis and video.

www.luckygunner.com

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