Air India #171 - update - might be a purposeful crash!

[chief38]

I have been following the Air India flight #171 crash over the last few weeks. They have pretty much determined that the fuel was shut off on both engines. I know there have been lots of theories about what happened but some expert pilot commentators are now "suggesting" that the fuel was actually cut off on purpose! Apparently the two fuel cut off switches are protected with two "ears" on either side to prevent accidental turning off by a casual brushing up against them. They are also fairly complicated switches that need to overcome a detent and the collar needs to be pulled up before the switch can be moved to the off position - basically a "safety". Therefore it is highly unlikely and almost impossible to accidentally turn them both off simultaneously.

From what I understand, both switches were turned off at the same time and one of the pilots can be heard asking the other why he turned the switches off. The pilot that supposedly turned them off replied that he hadn't done so. Hmmmmmm. So was this a purposeful crash? It is SCARY to even think about this! Flying is complicated enough - we certainly do not need pilot assisted crashes added into the mix. The pilot whom I was watching explain this was fairly certain this was the case and also stated this would certainly not be the first time pilots were intentionally involved in plane disasters. As much as it won't change the final results, I sincerely hope this is not the case! We all await the final and official Agency report.

 

[taz666]

Watched this being reported yesterday as well. The procedure involved in shutting off the fuel doesn't just entail flipping switches. There are a couple other controls that have to be overridden as well.

We can never really know what was the reasoning behind this. One expert surmised that the weather may have had a hand in it as one of the pilots did a preflight in 105 degree heat and may have been disorientated as a result. He also stated that it is common to call out any control manipulation to the other pilot which was not done in this case.

 

[Chuck24]

Remember a few of these profiled on Air Disasters, most notably the Germanwings flight when the copilot locked the pilot out of the cockpit and flew the plane into a mountain

 

[Doug M.]

Just saw an article in the Seattle Times that reports on problems with the switches. They are supposed to take purposeful and unnatural actions to turn them off, but problems were known (too easy to turn off) with them since 2018. The FAA did an advisory but did not mandate checks and repairs. Such a choice seems like a "heads, pikes and walls" path to me.

 

[Hair Trigger]

Watched this being reported yesterday as well. The procedure involved in shutting off the fuel doesn't just entail flipping switches. There are a couple other controls that have to be overridden as well.

Normal engine shutdown is done at idle thrust, with the thrust levers pulled all the way back, but those two switches shut off fuel flow regardless of anything else you do and yes, it is that easy to kill the engines *. Engine start does require a couple of other steps when on the ground, but the FADEC takes care of that when airborne. Unfortunately, there was insufficient time after the switches were returned to "run" for the engines to re-light and start producing enough thrust to keep them in the air.

*And all but one of the people on the plane.

 

[Exaviator]

On older - pre glass cockpit aircraft - the fuel levers had a mechanical connection to the fuel control unit. On this aircraft movement of the switches just sends a signal to a computer, (A full authority digital engine or electronics control system) or FADEC. It is possible that in this instance, neither pilot knowingly selected the switches to "Off" but an errant signal from the FADEC was the culprit. Only time and further investigation will tell...

 

[CH4]

How many were in the cockpit? Often there is at least one extra pilot on the jump seat on long flights

 

[rwsmith]

It was too perfect. It seems that whoever killed the engines KNEW that was the right time to cut them in order to crash the plane.

 

[Mercury]

I read that the senior pilot had some mental health issues and had been treated for depression possibly related to his wife's death about a year ago.
We'll probably never know for sure and it won't change the outcome of the crash, but jeez.

Doomed Air India pilot’s medical records probed amid reports of depression, other mental health struggles

Medical records for an Air India pilot killed in last month’s crash are reportedly now being reviewed by investigators amid reports he’d been suffering from depression and other mental …

nypost.com

 

[SMSgt]

On older - pre glass cockpit aircraft - the fuel levers had a mechanical connection to the fuel control unit. On this aircraft movement of the switches just sends a signal to a computer, (A full authority digital engine or electronics control system) or FADEC. It is possible that in this instance, neither pilot knowingly selected the switches to "Off" but an errant signal from the FADEC was the culprit. Only time and further investigation will tell...

Two errant signals for two separate engine circuits? Questionable.

 

[Lance Boyle]

One thing I saw mentioned on the internet and do not know if it was true was the Captain was also going to retire prematurely to be his father’s caregiver. It seems that fellow had a lot on his plate.

I agree with some of the consensus analyzing the flight data with voice. Although the report doesn’t specify which pilot said what, they know via the system inputs which seat mic it was as well as vocal recognition. They intentional wrote the report not saying who said what but it is pretty apparent the PIC said the “why did you cut the fuel switches” and the flight officer who was the one actually flying said “I did not”. about ten seconds between that and the switches get moved back on. Obviously way too late.

My take is it is most likely the Captain committed them all to join his suicide. FO is flying the plane and focused on that, easy enough for the Captain to turn off the switches at exactly the right moment to doom them. Then he casts doubt on the recorder with his switch movement question. Calculated.

Like most cultures it’s taboo to commit suicide, especially taking hundreds with you. Guy plans his accident.

As far a that FADEC control thing and the computer did it without the switches actually moving? That’s a near fantasy in my opinion.

It’s a tragedy for all for sure.

 

[Lance Boyle]

How many were in the cockpit? Often there is at least one extra pilot on the jump seat on long flights

A good question I have yet to see answered anywhere. Asked, yes, but not answered.

The Indians are a face saving culture so I think they drag it out until the importance of the report is minimized. That whole not assigning who said what in the voice recording is deliberate. Ingenuine.

 

[CH4]

A good question I have yet to see answered anywhere. Asked, yes, but not answered.

The Indians are a face saving culture so I think they drag it out until the importance of the report is minimized. That whole not assigning who said what in the voice recording is deliberate. Ingenuine.

From what I know about the fuel cutoff switches, they didn’t just jump from run to cutoff by themselves after rotation, especially both of them in rapid succession. A statistical and physical impossibility.

 

[John in Yuma]

In the olden days of 3-man cockpits, were those fuel switches controlled by the Flight Engineer?
Having one crew member just keeping the engines running and the lights on may have been the better idea.

 

[Lance Boyle]

I stumbled on an English language Indian news show interviewing an Indian Airline Check Pilot or refresher training pilot that may have been a recent retiree. He is saying no way that switch pair was moved other than deliberate action. He also said that among the Indian Airline pilots it is common knowledge that the Captain in the crash was out in previous months for mental health issues.

Sucks for him sure, but it sucked worse for his passengers and crew.

 

[Exaviator]

"In the olden days of 3-man cockpits, were those fuel switches controlled by the Flight Engineer?
Having one crew member just keeping the engines running and the lights on may have been the better idea."

No the engine fuel levers (Switches) were always operated by the pilot flying. The F/E had control of the fuel management on his panel. i.e Tank selection, X-Feed, Booster Pumps and fuel dumping.

 

[rwsmith]

"In the olden days of 3-man cockpits, were those fuel switches controlled by the Flight Engineer?
Having one crew member just keeping the engines running and the lights on may have been the better idea."

No the engine fuel levers (Switches) were always operated by the pilot flying. The F/E had control of the fuel management on his panel. i.e Tank selection, X-Feed, Booster Pumps and fuel dumping.

Well, if the flight engineer had a death wish.......

I was going to include a surprised emoji, but didn't want people to think I was being jokey about a maybe intentional tragedy.

 

[Rudi]

Mentour Pilot just covered this. The odds of the fuel switches accidently being turned off are enormous. The voice recorder has one pilot asking the other about it.