.357 Mag Pressure Signs: How Sticky is Too Sticky?

[RevV67]

I am interested in the oversized brushes you mentioned.
Is this what you are recommending?

PRO SHOT PRODUCTS, INC .38/.357 CALIBER PISTOL BRUSH

Check out PRO SHOT PRODUCTS, INC .38/.357 CALIBER PISTOL BRUSH available Online at Brownells Today and many more Gun Cleaning Brushes products are available in our Tools & Cleaning Department.

www.brownells.com

 

[PzShrekt]

I am leary of high pressure in a K-frame, I have replaced three K-frame .357 barrels for customers that had cracks in the forcing cone.

I've been handloading since 1965, in my expereience if you are getting sticky extraction, you have exceeded the high pressure point for your gun.

I have loaded 158 SWCs in my 4" M-19 to 1425 fps and not had sticky extraction (loaded with H110 - listed in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook)- I don't do that any more - in fact I don't often shoot any .357 in my K-frame .357s.

Riposte

Honestly, how "sticky" would be sticky? Because pretty much out of a batch of 50 rounds only one or two of them would get sticky to the point of having to exert 1.5x more thumb pressure to extract, the rest of them do stick, but only slight pressure ~5 pounds of force is enough to pop them free.

 

[PzShrekt]

I am interested in the oversized brushes you mentioned.
Is this what you are recommending?

PRO SHOT PRODUCTS, INC .38/.357 CALIBER PISTOL BRUSH

Check out PRO SHOT PRODUCTS, INC .38/.357 CALIBER PISTOL BRUSH available Online at Brownells Today and many more Gun Cleaning Brushes products are available in our Tools & Cleaning Department.

www.brownells.com

Honestly my go to is just some cut up chore boys on a 9mm or worn out .40 cal brush and a power drill.

The hard extraction is not due to some issue with chamber roughness because I've polished it before with a tight rag and Mother's Mag polish in the past for like 30 minutes, these things are a mirror sheen inside.

I use a power drill to clean out the cylinders, there's nothing in there at all, no carbon rings so that can't be the case.

 

[PzShrekt]

Using mixed brass that's been fired an unknown number of times (you never know if the brass you find on the ground is really once-fired) puts you at an immediate disadvantage. Mixed mystery brass often works well, but will never work better than new or once-fired brass of the same batch or at least the same headstamp. It's difficult if not impossible for you to analyze the situation without having adequate control factors and brass is one of them.

I have a collection of Magtech, armscorp, PMC, and Fiocchi brass in .357.

These aren't range pickups kind you, these were all cases I've shot and loaded since the day I bought them as factory rounds, and so far I've got about 8-10 loadings with my Fiocchi and Armscor, PMC has around 5 loadings, and Magtech only 2. My experience with Magtech was pretty meh. A 158 grain JSP shot about 1105 or so from my Model 66, my handloads are technically a bit hotter at 1150-1170 fps. Extraction wise these factory new rounds all stuck as well, but extracted freely with about 5 pounds of thumb pressure.


In terms of difficulty in extraction, frankly these all felt the same as my handloads, the difference being that with MY supposed mid range conservative loads, I get sticky extract with about one or two of my rounds, the rest typically only take slight pressure to pop free.

 

[rockquarry]

I have a collection of Magtech, armscorp, PMC, and Fiocchi brass in .357.

These aren't range pickups kind you, these were all cases I've shot and loaded since the day I bought them as factory rounds, and so far I've got about 8-10 loadings with my Fiocchi and Armscor, PMC has around 5 loadings, and Magtech only 2. My experience with Magtech was pretty meh. A 158 grain JSP shot about 1105 or so from my Model 66, my handloads are technically a bit hotter at 1150-1170 fps. Extraction wise these factory new rounds all stuck as well, but extracted freely with about 5 pounds of thumb pressure.


In terms of difficulty in extraction, frankly these all felt the same as my handloads, the difference being that with MY supposed mid range conservative loads, I get sticky extract with about one or two of my rounds, the rest typically only take slight pressure to pop free.

That wasn't made clear in your original post so I had to assume you do what many do. However, if these are mixed as you load, then you are still using mixed brass. Brass isn't all the same, some cases last longer than others, some brass is thicker than others, they have different capacities, etc. If you're striving for best results, that's not the way to do it.

 

[Yendor357]

Since when?
Since the beginning.
Ever heard of the "Endurance Package"?
Do some research.
Cheers.

 

[stansdds]

In terms of difficulty in extraction, frankly these all felt the same as my handloads, the difference being that with MY supposed mid range conservative loads, I get sticky extract with about one or two of my rounds, the rest typically only take slight pressure to pop free.

On those few mid-range handloads that are difficult to extract, what do those cases look like? Is there a lot of gunshot residue along the sides of those sticky cases?

 

[rosewood]

(Factory loaded Speer GD 327 Fed. Mag. primers usually do flatten completely and appear to flow out of the pocket slightly, but Speer says that is normal for that loading.)

Happy, safe loading to you!

Good info. I recently started loading the 327 and was wondering about this. Those Mag loads do seem really hot by the flattened primers even below max. This gives me a little more comfort.

Thanks,

Rosewood

 

[Riposte1]

I buy these by the dozen from Brownells. True, they are oversized and work far better than a regular bore brush. Thanks for mentioning; some may not be aware these are available.

I alway bought surplus .50 cal brushes at gun shows by the 10-pack to clean .45s and .44s. I use .375 rifle brushes for .38 and .357.

Riposte

 

[max503]

I love my guns and I back-off whenever there is ANY sign of high pressure.
The stickyness and flat primers you mention would have me backing off immediately.

 

[Dan W. Cady]

I rarely load close to the max, and when I do, I never run it in a K-Frame, just L-Frame and Rugers.
I do not claim to be an expert, but with 357 I do not think that stickiness is a great indicator of high pressure.
I look at the primers. If a 357 primer flattens completely, and especially if it flows out of the primer pocket, then I back off the charge.

(Factory loaded Speer GD 327 Fed. Mag. primers usually do flatten completely and appear to flow out of the pocket slightly, but Speer says that is normal for that loading.)

Happy, safe loading to you!

Looking at primers is a poor indication of pressure.

 

[rosewood]

Looking at primers is a poor indication of pressure.

So, how do you do it? Most of us don't have pressure testing equipment, so we have to use what we got.

 

[Glenn Nesmith]

I guess we all have different perspectives and standards for accuracy. If I'm going to invest the time, money, and effort to handload, I probably won't be making "plinking" loads; it will be the best I can put together.

Wouldn't "the best I can put together" include using new brass or at least brass you know?

 

[Riposte1]

Honestly, how "sticky" would be sticky? Because pretty much out of a batch of 50 rounds only one or two of them would get sticky to the point of having to exert 1.5x more thumb pressure to extract, the rest of them do stick, but only slight pressure ~5 pounds of force is enough to pop them free.

I would sort of like my loads to just fall out of the chamber when I open the cylinder and point the barrel skyward - but I can live with a litle nudge of the extractor rod - I sort of need to test it on a scale..

The loads in the Speer #8 that push a 158 to 1000+ from a 2", do fall out of my M-36 if it is clean, likewise my M-19s and Colt Diamondbacks.

Riposte

 

[rockquarry]

Wouldn't "the best I can put together" include using new brass or at least brass you know?

Of course; I figured that was assumed.

 

[PzShrekt]

On those few mid-range handloads that are difficult to extract, what do those cases look like? Is there a lot of gunshot residue along the sides of those sticky cases?

Not at all, keep in my I do a crimp on the bottom edge of the cannelure, about 3/8ths of a full turn on the crimping die, and no I do not resize my ammo through an FCD, I find that the FCD tends to swage jacket bullets to .355", and all my chamber throats are at around .357" when I measure them with a micrometer, and almost all my rounds tend to plonk into the cylinder holes when I test them.

 

[PzShrekt]

Looking at primers is a poor indication of pressure.

Yeah that's why I've always been a bit curious about reading pressure signs off of primers for my .357 brass, there's a LOT of slop when it comes to revolvers, I would say out of 50 of my loads 2-4 of them primers would be completely pancake flattened against the recoil shield, likely because of them shifting during firing.

The .45 brass I own have practically no movement on them when I try to seat the rim onto the rim claw on my P220, and those loads have very consistent primer signs.

 

[PzShrekt]

That wasn't made clear in your original post so I had to assume you do what many do. However, if these are mixed as you load, then you are still using mixed brass. Brass isn't all the same, some cases last longer than others, some brass is thicker than others, they have different capacities, etc. If you're striving for best results, that's not the way to do it.

No, I use mixed heastamps as in I own multiple 50 round sets of .357 Mag in different headstamps. I ALWAYS load each batch using the same headstamps. Load wise I always found my safest loads using CCI 500s to be 12.4 grains avg of AA#9, those barely take any pressure on the ejector before they pop out, like I'm talking just a slight bit more pressure than it needs to run the ejector on an empty cylinder, about 2 pounds of force or so.

 

[PzShrekt]

Situation update,
I went back with the same load and components in my Model 66-3, this time I took extra care and attention to REALLY scrub out the carbon rings from my .38 special loads I test in that gun, and I have to say, great success.

The cases come tumbling out with just the SLIGHTEST touch of the ejector rod, and only after around 100 rounds or so did the cases start to develop a slight bit more stickyness.

A 50 round group averaged around 1170 fps from my 4 inch barrel with 12.8 grains of Accurate #9 under a 158 grain JHP, standard CCI 500 primers seem fine, though some are a bit pancaked, most are rounded. I even tested my favorite 12.6 grain load with a 158 grain bullet, and that was a bit dirtier, and did cause a slight bit more stickiness than my 12.8 grain loads, but I can safely say that yes, stickiness in extraction can be a good indicator of pressure.

A 13.5 grain load was also quite fine, they were a bit sticky, which falls in line with the 13.8 grain max load for AA#9 under a 158 grain JHP round.

Picked up H110, used a CCI 550 with a medium crimp, around 15.8 grains under a 158 grain JHP, did about 1070 fps avg, sd of about 50. Honestly not a bad load for plinking, a bit of unburnt powder though. Pretty accurate at 10 yards in double action. Will try 16-16.3 grain next time.

 

[rockquarry]

Situation update,
I went back with the same load and components in my Model 66-3, this time I took extra care and attention to REALLY scrub out the carbon rings from my .38 special loads I test in that gun, and I have to say, great success.

The cases come tumbling out with just the SLIGHTEST touch of the ejector rod, and only after around 100 rounds or so did the cases start to develop a slight bit more stickyness.

A 50 round group averaged around 1170 fps from my 4 inch barrel with 12.8 grains of Accurate #9 under a 158 grain JHP, standard CCI 500 primers seem fine, though some are a bit pancaked, most are rounded. I even tested my favorite 12.6 grain load with a 158 grain bullet, and that was a bit dirtier, and did cause a slight bit more stickiness than my 12.8 grain loads, but I can safely say that yes, stickiness in extraction can be a good indicator of pressure.

A 13.5 grain load was also quite fine, they were a bit sticky, which falls in line with the 13.8 grain max load for AA#9 under a 158 grain JHP round.

Picked up H110, used a CCI 550 with a medium crimp, around 15.8 grains under a 158 grain JHP, did about 1070 fps avg, sd of about 50. Honestly not a bad load for plinking, a bit of unburnt powder though. Pretty accurate at 10 yards in double action. Will try 16-16.3 grain next time.

Everything is accurate at ten yards and we are all expert shooters at that distance. As a suggestion, try the same at 25 yards. You'll get much more useful information.