SIG P320 Discharges?

[scottR68]

As a recovering Sig fanboy.
When I decided I wanted to step back from the .40’s and .45’s to a 9mm, for better control and accuracy, I went straight to the Sig showcase. I wasn’t even entertaining any other brands.

I’ve got a “frozen shoulder” that just doesn’t allow me to stay on target with the snappiness of the larger caliber pistols I own. So, it was time for a “softer” shooting gun, with a larger capacity, and hopefully a safer more easy to handle shooting experience overall.

All that being said. The first two guns I tried were a P365 and the P320. The 365 was no frills, shot good but still a bit too snappy for what I was looking for. I tried the P320 next and really liked the way it shot and felt in my hand. I had all but made my mind up that the 320 was gonna probably be my next EDC. Thank goodness I did my research. Seeing the videos, reading the articles, and hearing horror stories. I couldn’t believe the way Sig seemingly didn’t and still isn’t imho owning it…AT ALL.

Sadly my go to for pistols for the last 25+ years has fallen into the “evil corporations” category. Apparently Sig has now too taken the greed over quality stance. With a total disregard when it comes to the safety of its end users.

I’m no collector or govenment agency, so they won’t miss me or my money. Either way, Sig has lost my business, most likely forever.

I don’t see Sig ever bouncing back from this. Nor should they imho. Not because they made mistakes in the design, production, or whatever. But rather the way they have mishandled these issues from the beginning. Now a service member has lost his life basically because of a government contract and corporate greed. Not at all okay SIG.

Bright side: There is an over abundance of great pistols to choose from these days, and they are only getting better. For me personally, it’s a win because I’ve come full circle. S&W was my first big boy gun 4506 (Sonny Crocket many moons ago. Now the Comp Carry resides on my hip full time. And I ain’t mad about it!

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

So, if everything goes just right, no improper handling, no improper assembly, no extra oil where it shouldn't be, no crud jamming things up, no clothing inside the holster, no fingers in the wrong places, no rolling around in the mud fighting for control of the gun with an assailant, lots of excellent training, etc, etc. there should be no unintentional discharges. On the other hand, if the gun had a thumb safety that would prevent the striker from hitting the primer of the cartridge, even if it slips off the sear, or the operator has his finger on the trigger when he shouldn't, the risk of all those other things causing an unintentional discharge would be greatly reduced, if not completely prevented. I know I'm a fudd, but I've learned over the years to be skeptical of dangerous things that depend on everything going just right every time.

Exactly! Evidently, according to Sig, one should only use a P320 in a climate-controlled, padded cleanroom, while wearing a kevlar suit, with no holster in sight, only while stationary in a stable stance secured by safety harnesses, well away from a locale that might be prone to earthquakes.

 

[Devil in the Shade]

So interesting to see how the Glock haters of the Sig 320 do not ever mention the Glocks that went off all by themselves in the New York Police Dept.
And how Glock had to convince them to keep the guns at a huge cost, and issued the famous 12lb trigger.
The Sig 320 is a advance shooting weapon and used in the harshest climate and terrain, by military's across the world without issues. This is nothing but a Huge Jealousy bunch of nonsense by Glock owners that want to whine like a bunch of Snowflakes because they did not win the Military Contract.
Glocks have no where near the popularity they once had. There are so many firearms as good or better than the Glock that have come out in the recent years and even less expensive. . Heck, even the Clones are much better design.
The real issue is Glock owner pride and loss of that pride.

 

[M14sRock]

Sorry, but in Portland in the late 80's or early 90's a Glock 17 went off in the holster during baton (PR 24) training when the baton hit the side of the holster on a back swing. No fingers involved.

There were other incidents too, but that is the one I had a personal connection to. Portland cops and Anchorage cops used the same (labor issues) law firm and the lawyers therein put pressure on Glock for remedies

If such things did not occur, why was Glock forced to redesign the part they call the cruciform and recommend they all be replaced?

Look it up.

As armorers we expedited the new parts asap and upgraded all the Glocks our guy and gals were carrying. The redesigned parts had a different color finish so that you could tell the difference.

Like Elmer Keith said.... Hell, I was there.

My time spent with Glocks began in the mid '80s. Glocks were hated back then and everyone was trying to prove they were unsafe. When I attended my first Glock Armorers course in '89 (Taught by Jerry and Kathy Lane) they showed us pages and pages of 'Accidental Discharge' data having to do with Glocks, from Agencies all over the country. Virtually every single one came down to 1 of 4 things. Cops were changing the angle of their Connector to make the triggers feel lighter, Cops were removing the Striker block and spring to make the trigger feel smoother, Cops were filing off the 'trigger dingus' and Cops were trying to put fully loaded pistols back into the factory plastic case.
The 'upgraded' parts that came into play around 1990 were an attempt to make the affected parts smoother and more corrosion resistant.

I still have old Gen1/Gen2 parts tucked away in my parts bin, and probably still in a few Glocks. No issues with any of them.

Considering that the Glock Striker is not 'cocked' until the trigger is pressed all the way to the rear, I can't imagine a mechanical reason for one to go off in a holster.

But while we are on the subject of holsters, Glocks were so reviled in the industry when they came out that finding any kind of holster for them was tough, aside from the polymer holsters offered by Glock. Bianchi refused to offer a Glock specific holster for many years, and through trial and error it was discovered that Sig P226 holsters worked with the G17.

 

[Taj]

Could you tell me which "generation of Glock" had the defective sears? I remember several years ago my glocks which were made in the 80's had a recall (upgrade) in relation to the passive firing pin safety not working right. I did test my Glocks and the passive firing pin safety appeared to be working and was told if I sent them back in to be retrofitted I would get a much heavier trigger pull. Should I have sent them back in?

It was all the first gen pistols in 9mm and .40 S&W. If I remember right it included 19s with serial numbers prior and post "EH". The best I recall the striker safety plunger (timing) issue was part of the overall issue. When the sear engagement was increased it changed all the dynamics in the trigger pull. Everything had to be replaced to properly function in the trigger pull sequence and the possibility some of the other parts were damaged. Due to the shallow sear engagement some of the striker safeties were showing signs of striker contact during normal operation. The edge of the plunger cut would develop a slight radius which would allow the striker to over ride the safety plunger. On pistols where this was an issue you could push forward on the striker stud while it was in the slide and it would "snap" past the safety plunger. Brother, that was 40 years ago so that's the best of my memory.

 

[9Mary7]

You make very salient points. Quality is now, in the future, and always has been a Management responsibility. As fish rot from the head, one needs to start the trouble shooting effort there. Management made the decision to adapt an existing design (hammer-fired P226) to a different platform (striker-fired), use MIM produced in lieu of more precise stamped parts to reduce costs. Sig was virtually giving the pistol to the Army.

The hammer-fired pistol that was adapted was the P250, Not the P226. Other than that, I agree with your post.

 

[Taj]

Wasn't that for the earlier Gen 4 models? I seem to remember the first run of Gen 4's had some issues, which is probably why I don't have one.

Brother I wasn't around for that gen gun. The updates I'm referring to were 1st gen pistols. My memory fails me but it had to be in the 80's. I do remember and had/have kits for 17's, 22's and 19's with serial numbers starting prior and post "EH".

 

[WCCPHD]

So interesting to see how the Glock haters of the Sig 320 do not ever mention the Glocks that went off all by themselves in the New York Police Dept.
And how Glock had to convince them to keep the guns at a huge cost, and issued the famous 12lb trigger.
The Sig 320 is a advance shooting weapon and used in the harshest climate and terrain, by military's across the world without issues. This is nothing but a Huge Jealousy bunch of nonsense by Glock owners that want to whine like a bunch of Snowflakes because they did not win the Military Contract.
Glocks have no where near the popularity they once had. There are so many firearms as good or better than the Glock that have come out in the recent years and even less expensive. . Heck, even the Clones are much better design.
The real issue is Glock owner pride and loss of that pride.

Don't forget the 300 plus lawsuits that Glock settled with the DC Metro PD and had gag orders entered.

This argument is like Ford vs Chevrolet. Some like one, some like others. Both are decent and both have their flaws. The media is taking up the Sig drama due to their being anti-gun. When glock was having their problems the media was not nearly so vocal about guns.

 

[Taj]

I fail to see why Glock was even brought up during this discussion. There’s a BIG difference between the two companies.

Glock actually did something meaningful. Sig has not.

Brother I think all we are trying to do is show that other companies have had their issues and that it's not having a problem, but how that problem is handled. I agree with you. Sig has mishandles this thing from the start.

 

[Ματθιας]

Brother I wasn't around for that gen gun. The updates I'm referring to were 1st gen pistols. My memory fails me but it had to be in the 80's. I do remember and had/have kits for 17's, 22's and 19's with serial numbers starting prior and post "EH".

There were no Gen1 .G22 G23 40 cal. just G17s and a small number of G19s. Prefix "EH" is Gen2.

How do I know this? I have a DWJ imports Israeli police trade G17 Gen2 with the Serial number "G 2XXX" frame. It's an odd ball at it has mis-matched numbers matching slide/barrel with a "EP XXX" with a deeper mis aligned stamped "0" on both the slide and barrel. Euro proofs.

As far as I know, it has period parts and is the best shooting 9mm Glock I have.

 

[Jim Watson]

Apologists for the P320 are citing the old movie line "Hundreds and hundreds of times, ain't nothing happened at all."

 

[Swood]

Brother I wasn't around for that gen gun. The updates I'm referring to were 1st gen pistols. My memory fails me but it had to be in the 80's. I do remember and had/have kits for 17's, 22's and 19's with serial numbers starting prior and post "EH".

I seem to recall something wrong with the early releases of the Gen 4 guns. I don't remember what the problem was exactly, just that there was something.

When you are saying prior and post EH, I am assuming that is the first 2 letters of the serial number. I have a Gen 2 17 with AG and 2 19s with AK and AY, but have never had any problems out of them.

 

[Ματθιας]

I seem to recall something wrong with the early releases of the Gen 4 guns. I don't remember what the problem was exactly, just that there was something.

When you are saying prior and post EH, I am assuming that is the first 2 letters of the serial number. I have a Gen 2 17 with AG and 2 19s with AK and AY, but have never had any problems out of them.

The gen4 G17s and I think some 19s had reliability issues with recoil spring assemblies and extractors. There was a giant thread about the issues on glocktalk when they first came out. Revised parts fixed the issues.

The other issues with Glocks were with Gen2 and Gen3 G22 and G23 going Kaboom. Lack of chamber support, IIRC.

 

[TeamPB]

My 320 and Sig story:

In March of 2017 we bought Honey her first center-fire pistol, a 9mm P320. She shot it very, very well. Almost immediately after purchase the drop safe issue rumors appeared. I didn't like the 320's trigger or grip angle, so I did one of the best things ever! I traded it for a used CZ 75B SA. OMG what a pistol. It flatters everyone.

No hard feelings towards Sig, I assumed production changes (which happen everywhere) had corrected the 320's issues. We acquired a West German 220, a German 228 and a NH 365. They are all very good guns.

Sig USA's response to the very ongoing 320 debacle means I/we will never purchase a new Sig. Call it philosophy, ethics, responsibility or accountability, or anything else you want, I call it failure. Failure that is harming people. This failure should have been addressed long ago.

 

[Motown_Ron]

S&W and Ruger definitely.

Not so much Colt which hasn't produced any general issue revolver or pistol acceptable for military or LE use in at least 30 years.

Someone has forgotten the Colt makes AR-type carbines (M5) for cops to use. https://www.colt.com/product-category/rifles/

 

[shawn mccarver]

I seldom paid much attention to SIGs until a contract I was working in Mogadishu 'loaned' a couple of hundred M-11s (P229) to specialized units of the Somali Federal Police Force. The pistols were fine except 2 that were inoperable out of the box and were replaced.

I just noticed today that there is some controversy over the SIG P320 that has agencies divesting themselves of the sidearm - here's one example from a news report:

"Shortly after dark one day in September 2022, police officers Yang Lee and Charles Laskey-Castle arrived on Milwaukee’s west side to investigate a car abandoned on the sidewalk. Lee knelt to examine the driver’s side floorboard as Laskey-Castle stood behind him. Then Lee rose — and his holstered gun fired a bullet into his partner’s leg.

The shooting was captured on body camera footage, and it was at least the third time in three years that a Milwaukee officer’s SIG Sauer P320 pistol had allegedly fired without a trigger pull, according to lawsuits and police records. The following month, the Milwaukee Police Department moved to replace its P320s with weapons from another manufacturer."

Have I just been asleep? Anyone have factual info? To be clear, I don't intend to buy one, just curious.

I understand from a You Tube video that the count of these "uncommanded discharges" is now up around 100, and last week, a USAF Airman was killed when his holstered M18 went off by itself and the bullet struck him in the chest. The commanding general immediately "paused" the use of all SIG M18s until further notice and ordered that M4A1s be issued to anyone who would normally use a pistol.

 

[smithman 10]

I always thought replacing the M9 was a case of " If it ain't broke,..."

Understand that many of the M9s in use were getting worn out but why not just replace them with new ones? Would have been much cheaper I'm sure than switching to the problem plagued new Sig pistol has turned out. IMHO.

Just my 2 cents and I realize there are many folks on this board much, much more familiar with semi-auto pistols than I am.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Went out to the Base today.
Asked the Airman who was scanning my ID,
What Handgun are you carrying today?
He turned slightly so I could see, no handgun.
He did have a M4 slung over his shoulder.

 

[Faulkner]

The other issues with Glocks were with Gen2 and Gen3 G22 and G23 going Kaboom. Lack of chamber support, IIRC.

Mostly accredited to over charged reloaded ammo in the then new .40 S&W.

 

[Onomea]

Here is Bruce Gray, of GrayGuns, a few days ago explaining his view:



It is an Instagram, of which I am not a member, link, but the video can be viewed.