In-ground oil tank, EPA problems?

[Trooperdan]

My son has a run-down house he was given by my ex-wife. Here in North Carolina, a lot of homes built in the '50's have in-ground fuel oil tanks. The house hasn't used the oil furnace in years but the tank was still there. He is trying to get a loan on the house but cannot get insurance due to the tank.
So he hired a company to lift out the tank and that was done. Both of us were surprised when we were told the EPA required soil tests to see if the tank had been leaking. The test cost $250 BTW!
Well, the results came back Friday and he failed the test! Not at all sure what is next.. someone along the way had mentioned there is federal assistance for soil remediation required by the EPA.. after you have spent the first $5,000!

Anyone here have any experience with such a situation?

 

[rburg]

There is no happy answer. What the EPA will want is for you to hire a certified contractor to remove the contaminated soil and then retest. He'll have to ship the oil soaked dirt someplace that is allowed to receive it. All that costs money.

I personally think its a scam, with the government in bed with the contractors. But there is no way out once they become aware of the tank and your address.

 

[tomf52]

Be thankfull the federal aid is there to limit you to $5000. A friend of mine went through a soil remediation with a leaking tank and it cost them $80,000!

 

[VAdoublegunner]

I can only answer from the Virginia perspective, having worked in an associated regulatory program for many years, but NC is similar. This falls under the federal RCRA Subtitle I program. Leaking household heating oil tanks are covered. There is (or at least was, unless it has been redesignated to Acorn), a federal/state reimbursement program for leaking underground oil tanks that require remediation. Remediation is actually required once a leak has been determined or you, the homeowner, are liable for any contamination cleanup costs that may result. So if you have a leaking tank, it is best not to ignore the problem it can get much worse.

Here is a link to NC's FAQs --- http://www.wastenotnc.org/ust/FaqHHO.html

 

[ingmansinc]

You may be wise to consult with an attorney that handles this type of real estate law. I am only guessing, but someone may be liable for the oil spill from years gone by.

 

[mississippi revolverman]

Sorry for his problem it can be a mess. At work we leasesd a property for my shop. The Manager had the insight to get a geological site survey done before we moved it. Turns out prior occupants had an oil leak and EPA was knowledgable. Big $$ associated with the clean up.

We are clear of any future liability. Try finding a Survey company might me good money spent

 

[Landpimp]

thats why you get a buddy with a hoe to pop em out before hand......and not envolve the fed or whoever.

in WA they use to be really harsh on in ground FO tanks, but have lossened up over the years, no soil test for residenntial(that I know of)

 

[tomf52]

Landpimp - In many states you cannot get away with "popping them out" as site plans record the presence of the tanks and sites are checked for their still being there or the paperwork to prove they have been removed and checked according to law. I went through this myself in NJ when selling my house. Fortunately I had all the proper documents and had no trouble.Site plans in some NJ municipalities date back to the fifties and sixties.

 

[Trooperdan]

VAdoublegunner and others that have posted, thanks a BIG bunch for the info! That link to NC's site was a big help.. actually saw one FAQ that said he "might" have zero liability if he is the "statutory tank owner". Another also said he might have recourse against the prior owner.. of course that might be my ex! But she can't afford it either!

I think consulting an attorney would be cheap insurance as well.

 

[Landpimp]

around here, there are no records on tanks(most FO was installed in the 40-50's, some in the 60's but by the 70's we had natural gas), just if there is a filler sticking up is the only way to know(or looking at the furnace), I think now we can just cap off the filler as long as the tank is empty, really havnt had to deal with one in years....at one point it was weekly and a PITA

Landpimp - In many states you cannot get away with "popping them out" as site plans record the presence of the tanks and sites are checked for their still being there or the paperwork to prove they have been removed and checked according to law. I went through this myself in NJ when selling my house. Fortunately I had all the proper documents and had no trouble.Site plans in some NJ municipalities date back to the fifties and sixties.

 

[Half Scale]

Give Thomas Ammons at EHC (Environmental Hydrogeological Consultants) a call. They are located in Red Springs, NC (910-843-4456) not far from you at all. Here is his link:

http://www.environmentalnc.com/

As the old saying goes "been there..done that"

Cecil

 

[nisamo]

I had 4 tanks pulled from a 1950s era service station in the late 80s. Small tanks by today's standards, two 4000 gal, one 2000 and one 1000. They had all leaked a little. Cost was $17k back then. Tanks were cut up on site to 4'x4' pieces and hauled off on a flatbed. Guys in white enviro suits got in the pit and waved wand type sniffers over the tank wall dirt. beep beep dig out a little more. Took a couple of tests to satisfy the sniffers. The epa signed off on the tank closure and provided official documentation.

 

[oldRoger]

I had, and the new owners still use, a 600 gal underground fuel oil tank. Someone did a leak test in situ before we sold and found it tight. We lived in the country (Illinois) and the house was built with no building permit (none was required)
Tank was installed by my excavation sub-contractor, so it's not on any ones records.

I watched it filled many times. Spills on the ground near the tank were common if not endemic. I am quite sure that if the testers are competent they WILL find soil contamination.
I suggested to the new owner that he pull the tank (unofficially) and replace it with one above ground, no says he, it's not broken why fix it.

He will get nailed if he ever has it officially pulled. The EPA is about as user friendly as the IRS.

 

[Spotteddog]

I recall once seeing an old service station trying to make "approval" for another use application, it was about 2000' IIRC back in Chicago. The inspectors mandated reclamation. As most all were when it was constructed (mid 1950's) it was on a corner and I watched the progress over a number of months. After weeks of seeing track hoe booms, and a Godzilla sized device of some type brought in with the view hidden from the street by 8' privacy fencing, curiosity got the better of me. It turned out, state and Fed EPA must have mandated sterilization of the earth around the tanks, which I must assume had leaked(?). The earth beneath the entire location ended up being processed through Godzilla, which turned out to be a steam cleaner for soil, down to a 25' depth. I shudder to think what the $ costs were connected to that exercise? Keep in mind the phrase "We're from the government, and we're here to help you".

 

[Denver Dick]

Welcome to the world of Leaking Underground Storage Tanks (LUST). I was with Texaco for 13 years and primarily worked on UST matters. Usually, the environmental company removing the UST will test the surrounding soil in the pit and, if any hits show up, they sometimes can get away with a little over-excavate right then and save the cost of having to "go back in" later. This is especially true if the tank held oil as opposed to lighter end products like gasoline since the oil usually doesn't migrate very far.

As an aside, you can now understand why no oil company wants to close a refinery, even if operating at a loss. The cost of environmental clean up is UNBELIEVEABLE! It's better to let sleeping dogs lie, if you can . . . but, of course, sometimes that's not possible.

Good luck,

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

VAdoublegunner and others that have posted, thanks a BIG bunch for the info! That link to NC's site was a big help.. actually saw one FAQ that said he "might" have zero liability if he is the "statutory tank owner". Another also said he might have recourse against the prior owner.. of course that might be my ex! But she can't afford it either!

I think consulting an attorney would be cheap insurance as well.

The way it works is that the current property owner is first up to pay, but he has the absolute right to go after the person he got the property from for reimbursement, and after that person cheerfully pays the reimbursement to the current owner, they are then subrugated to the right to go after the person who sold it to them, and so on down the line down the line until they finally get to the one who actually buried the tank and caused all this mess to begin with. It's only a problem if one of the prior owners for whatever reason won't pay up (or can't) or in some unfortunate instances has the temerity to up and die. In which case you are royally "Stchupanga'ed".
Consulting an attorney now is like putting on a rain coat after you are wet. The time to consult is before one buys (or takes title) to property to make sure there aren't any little nubbikins lurking behind the frenzamachalit. This has become a BIG area of litigation-I for one will not take title to ANY piece of property until I have inspections done of not only the records, but also the actual property itself. I can tell you all kinds of horror stories of people having to pay upwards of 100,000 to remediate a piece of property.

 

[BrianE]

I worked with a guy that had an oil tank leak 250 gallons and it got into the well water... The way he found out was his neighbor went to get a drink..... . His homeowners insurance paid for it, but it was SERIOUS amounts of cash to get taken care of........ ripped off his back porch, his lawn, his neighbors lawn, etc etc........ Im sure he got dropped after that. I can definitely understand why they no longer want tanks in the ground.

 

[Wickahoney]

I've seen several things on the local new about similar things that just keep getting bigger and worse as stuff goes on.

A few months ago some kids found a DROP of stanf=ding mercury in Boise in the alley behind their house. What in the world possessed them to call EPA was beyond me. They could have thought it through very far.

When it was all said and done they and 3 or 4 bneighbors had to be moved out and they took the soil down 4 feet in all the back yards, right to the back door steps. They never said who got to pay or who was laible but the total of the intial spill was estimates at less than a few ounces.

Good Lord I can remember breaqking open thermometers as a kid and playing with the mercury.

The times they have changed.

RWT

 

[Trooperdan]

The way it works is that the current property owner is first up to pay, but he has the absolute right to go after the person he got the property from for reimbursement, and after that person cheerfully pays the reimbursement to the current owner, they are then subrugated to the right to go after the person who sold it to them, and so on down the line down the line until they finally get to the one who actually buried the tank and caused all this mess to begin with. It's only a problem if one of the prior owners for whatever reason won't pay up (or can't) or in some unfortunate instances has the temerity to up and die. In which case you are royally "Stchupanga'ed".

CajunLawyer, I really appreciate your insight and experience here! The rest of the story is my son was given the house by my ex-wife. She bought it after we divorced.. have no idea about the ownership prior to that I don't think she can pay anything. I have learned that NC has a trust fund to assist landowners in these cases.. but my son has to qualify as the "statutory owner". I was told if he has ever used the tank, he is qualifies! Otherwise he is on the hook for the first $5,000! He was trying to get an equity loan on the house.. heck, he cannot even get homeowners insurance until this mess is cleared up!

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

CajunLawyer, I really appreciate your insight and experience here! The rest of the story is my son was given the house by my ex-wife. She bought it after we divorced.. have no idea about the ownership prior to that I don't think she can pay anything. I have learned that NC has a trust fund to assist landowners in these cases.. but my son has to qualify as the "statutory owner". I was told if he has ever used the tank, he is qualifies! Otherwise he is on the hook for the first $5,000! He was trying to get an equity loan on the house.. heck, he cannot even get homeowners insurance until this mess is cleared up!

Based on what you just said, I would STRONGLY suggest you speak to a local lawyer with experience in this type of case. There is a duty to disclose things like this and depending on the circumstances surrpounding your ex's purchase of the property.....well it's a long shot, but at least talk to someone.