F B I paddle holster question

rog8732 · Oct 18, 2017

I spent close to an hour of enjoyable time on this holster sub-forum last evening, and as in other areas of the forum, there is a great amount of knowledge on this side-line of firearm collecting.
So much attention to detail in fact; that "side-line" may be a totally incorrect description.

I have been watching a T V series of F B I stories from the sixties and early seventies; the time when they were still issued revolvers.

I'm fairly certain the guns are S&W 3 inch, (mdl 13 ?) all are blue, and the two agents profiled are forensic and behavioral scientist more than field agents.

Very few screen shots of the arms and accessories, but both have "paddle" holsters, black; which are shown removed a couple times a show.
Not shown in any overt action, but just in keeping with agents being armed.

The question: What brand of paddle holsters were the primary issued F B I holsters of that day ?

sigp220.45 · Oct 18, 2017

I was an agent from 1991 to 2016. I was never issued a paddle holster, and I never saw a revolver guy use one. The Safariland open topped black paddles (5181?) were popular for guys who bought their own for their semi-autos. I think they even sold them at the little PX inside the academy. (FBI trivia bonus - they also sold Pachmayr grip adapters. I’ve never seen an FBI revolver with a Tyler T grip.)

A lot of guys didn’t like carrying their guns around in the office, and the paddle holsters made it easy to divest themselves without taking off a belt or taking the gun out of the holster.

rednichols · Oct 19, 2017

What we call a paddle holster today was a mighty obscure item before the 70s and perhaps didnt exist before the Sixties. That would throw your timeline off considerably.

The first of these paddle holsters was a simple double leather plate, elongated, with gal sheet metal inside and the 'upper' end stitched in a double row to the holster pocket. A secondary leather loop for the belt was incorporated, with a snap closure. Best known makers were Safety Speed and Tex Shoemaker. Almost always black. Surely the Eastern companies like Bucheimer and Jaypee made comparable items.

Paddle holsters changed dramatically beginning in the 70s. Finally it was creativity in polymer moulded paddles and ove5seas mould makers, that led to today's best paddle holsters being equipped with paddles moulded into complex, compound curves.

I would post up pics but local internet is lately worse than, say, Borneo. So am on my tablet,again.

turnerriver · Oct 19, 2017

I've been watching Mindhunters as well and have been pausing it in vain trying to identify those paddle holsters-I get a shot every time they visit a prison which is all the time.
S.D. Myres catalogs the Barton's Special holster as early as 1940 but that really isn't what we're looking at here. Red's assertion is correct, I couldn't find any paddle holster in any 1960's catalog including Smith & Wesson, Brauer Brothers and Bucheimer.
The 2 catalog cuts below are from a 1973 S&W holster catalog and an early 1970's G.F. Cake police supply catalog. That's all I came up with after 1/2 an hour in the catalog library.
According to the show Thompson machine gun fire was an ongoing exercise at Quantico.
Regards,
turnerriver

WCCPHD · Oct 19, 2017

Our agency's former director (1980 to 1992) was the retired FBI Senior Supervisory Resident Agent for the Raleigh NC R/A. He began his career with the FBI in 1955 and retired effective 12/31/1979. At that time the FBI was still carrying revolvers. He said at the time of retirement he carried his revolver in a Rodgers paddle holster.

From what I have been able to glean about this specific holster is that it was possibly the first kydex holster and it had a lining of suede leather laminated inside. He said most of the local agents used this holster. It was an open top holster without any retention device. Early in my full-time career (1979 - 2009) I don't think I can remember ever seeing an FBI agent actually carrying a gun. Our director kept his under the front seat of his car and only put it on during qualification. Beginning in the 1990's the agents I worked with actually carried firearms on their person.

Iggy · Oct 19, 2017

I have one of the B-35 style holsters, but it is black basket weave. In fact Sasaberanger is totin' it to peddle at a gunshow this weekend.
I forget who made it.

crazyphil · Oct 19, 2017

I just re-read a couple of old articles. Bill Rogers founded his holster
company in 1973. He had previously been an FBI Agent and became
dis-enchanted with his holster "while running across a Chicago street
he realized his service revolver preceded him to the other side".
His first product was a break front paddle holster, and he was the
creator of the first paddle holster. It featured an innovative synthetic
material for lightweight strength. He was awarded a patent for his
innovation. (If my memory is working, I believe the holster was lined
with suede). The innovative material was probably an early kydex.

Bill sold his company to Safariland. They make an updated
model that incorporates Bill's ideas. It is model 7TS.

SG-688 · Oct 19, 2017

I first saw a Rogers break front worn by an agent in 1974 with a 2 1/2 inch Combat Magnum.

Here's a page from the 1982 catalog and two screen shots from that mid-1970's FBI training film showing a "trainee" agent with a 4 inch M&P and a Rogers holster. The instructor is wearing a Heiser.

Also in the early 70's, Safariland produced a rubber coated metal paddle that screwed to the back of the holster.

rog8732 · Oct 19, 2017

That's the show turneriver, and like you, I have nearly worn out my pause button. I won't spoil anything, but in the last two episodes there are better views than at any other time.
One screen shot in particular shows the two on a county road coat-less with several views of the holsters.
In fact, the younger guy has his "paddle" not inside his pants but just under his belt, and another view shows them both to have thumb-snaps.
Other than the thumb pieces they look very similar to the B 35 model you posted.

There are 10 episodes which I think I inhaled in about 4 days.
I expect you might be finding it as I have; with an uneasy balance of being fascinating, and disturbing, in equal parts ??

I would like to think there are no humans like the agents encounter, but sorrowfully, it seems they were factual; and,... no shortage of modern-day duplicates.

Back to the holsters I was inquiring about.
I should have noted the "T V series" I was watching was NOT a documentary, but a drama based on fact. We know they sometimes take a free hand at factual use of guns and gear, although the automobiles seem to be dead-on for the years portrayed.
As sipg220.45 noted, maybe there were no paddle holsters being used by revolver guys.

Speaking of the years / time-frame as mentioned by Red Nichols.
I wrote 60's -70's as reference, when actually the time would have been no sooner than 74' or 75', since the lead character being portrayed is the real FBI agent John Douglas, who didn't join the FBI until 1971, and spent a few more years on SWAT and other assignments, before getting into what we now call "criminal profiling".

On an aside note, I spent a couple hours on ebay's "vintage holsters" last night and did not see quite what these guys are wearing.

Thanks for the comments on gun leather, guys.

rednichols · Oct 19, 2017

crazyphil said:
I just re-read a couple of old articles. Bill Rogers founded his holster
company in 1973. He had previously been an FBI Agent and became
dis-enchanted with his holster "while running across a Chicago street
he realized his service revolver preceded him to the other side".
His first product was a break front paddle holster, and he was the
creator of the first paddle holster. It featured an innovative synthetic
material for lightweight strength. He was awarded a patent for his
innovation. (If my memory is working, I believe the holster was lined
with suede). The innovative material was probably an early kydex.

Bill sold his company to Safariland. They make an updated
model that incorporates Bill's ideas. It is model 7TS.

Darn it Phil your references have led you astray. Bill's patent was (long expired) what is called a 'method' patent only. It was a method of laminating leather inside an amorphous plastic such as Kydex using a heat insensitive glue and putting the hot holster into a padded press as long done with wet leather holsters. He did not invent the kydex holster. He did not invent the paddle holster. He did not as others have claimed on Bills behalf, invent the breakfront holster. All those inventions were by others. Bill combined these features into an unpatented series of holsters that were assembled using a patented method/process.

sigp220.45 · Oct 19, 2017

I just watched the first episode of Mindhunter on Netflix, and they had a first rate technical advisor. The Quantico scenes were either shot at the FBI Academy or a very close duplicate. The initial hostage negotiation scene was excellent, and the outcome would have been considered a win, then or now. (I was a hostage negotiator as an additional duty.)

The young guy is apparently based on John Douglas, who I never met, and the older gruff guy is supposed to be based on Robert Ressler, who I did know.

The show is fantastic.

rednichols · Oct 19, 2017

rog8732 said:
That's the show turneriver, and like you, I have nearly worn out my pause button. I won't spoil anything, but in the last two episodes there are better views than at any other time.
One screen shot in particular shows the two on a county road coat-less with several views of the holsters.
In fact, the younger guy has his "paddle" not inside his pants but just under his belt, and another view shows them both to have thumb-snaps.
Other than the thumb pieces they look very similar to the B 35 model you posted.

There are 10 episodes which I think I inhaled in about 4 days.
I expect you might be finding it as I have; with an uneasy balance of being fascinating, and disturbing, in equal parts ??

I would like to think there are no humans like the agents encounter, but sorrowfully, it seems they were factual; and,... no shortage of modern-day duplicates.

Back to the holsters I was inquiring about.
I should have noted the "T V series" I was watching was NOT a documentary, but a drama based on fact. We know they sometimes take a free hand at factual use of guns and gear, although the automobiles seem to be dead-on for the years portrayed.
As sipg220.45 noted, maybe there were no paddle holsters being used by revolver guys.

Speaking of the years / time-frame as mentioned by Red Nichols.
I wrote 60's -70's as reference, when actually the timarche would have been no sooner than 74' or 75', since the lead character being portrayed is the real FBI agent John Douglas, who didn't join the FBI until 1971, and spent a few more years on SWAT and other assignments, before getting into what we now call "criminal profiling".

On an aside note, I spent a couple hours on ebay's "vintage holsters" last night and did not see quite what these guys are wearing.

Thanks for the comments on gun leather, guys.

OMG, chaps, I thought you all were speaking of vintage shows involving FBI.. But double checking I see that Mindhunter (not Mindhunters) is both fictional and set in 1977!. Holsters could be anything that suited the prop master.

SG-688 · Oct 19, 2017

Unk year catalog page for the semi-shoulder Bucheimer. I forget where it came from.
I think these were also mentioned in that marvelous Bucheimer holster chart thread. (He said modestly....)
Found it - credit to Shawn McCarver.

turnerriver · Oct 20, 2017

That page showing the semi shoulder holster is from a 1955-6 Bucheimer catalog.
Regards,
turnerriver

SG-688 said:
Unk year catalog page for the semi-shoulder Bucheimer. I forget where it came from.
I think these were also mentioned in that marvelous Bucheimer holster chart thread. (He said modestly....)
Found it - credit to Shawn McCarver.

crazyphil · Oct 20, 2017

rednichols said:
Darn it Phil your references have led you astray. Bill's patent was (long expired) what is called a 'method' patent only. It was a method of laminating leather inside an amorphous plastic such as Kydex using a heat insensitive glue and putting the hot holster into a padded press as long done with wet leather holsters. He did not invent the kydex holster. He did not invent the paddle holster. He did not as others have claimed on Bills behalf, invent the breakfront holster. All those inventions were by others. Bill combined these features into an unpatented series of holsters that were assembled using a patented method/process.

They must have lead Safariland astray as well. On the
Safariland Group web page they say: Bill Rogers "inventor of
the first kydex holster and the first security holster"

Rogers Shooting School has a web page where the 7TS
Safariland holsters are available.

rednichols · Oct 20, 2017

crazyphil said:
They must have lead Safariland astray as well. On the
Safariland Group web page they say: Bill Rogers "inventor of
the first kydex holster and the first security holster"

Rogers Shooting School has a web page where the 7TS
Safariland holsters are available.

"Yessir", as old Tex Shoemaker used to say, people like Bill have repeated their legends for so long that they have fooled even themselves. And once the legend gets lodged in the minds of the second generation of owners it is not correctible. Bianchi today thinks the company started in 1958 (it was 1966) the Heiser sons thought theirs started in 1858 (it was 1874), Alessi thinks all its holsters were once patented (Lou had only one patent), El Paso Saddlery says it was founded 1890 (it was 1978), Milt Sparks makes its claims based on Bruce Nelson's legends (derived from Theodore).

It's tough for those of us who were 'there' and know the truth, when we try to compete as makers because 'dead men tell no tales' and there is a legion of chaps who spread the myths because its part of their own cred. Bill, and shooter Ken Hackathorn, repeat what they've heard until they lose track: do they KNOW it? Or did they hear it and assume it is true. The difference is called 'critical thinking'.

The online article you mentioned originally, is a 'puff' piece that is very common with publications that are either seeking favour, or advertising. The author won't know more than the man he is interviewing. I did email that pub suggesting it be corrected. No reply. How would they correct it without angering Bill? Him they know personally, me they dont.

These companies have no incentive to correct the record.

crazyphil · Oct 20, 2017

rednichols said:
"Yessir", as old Tex Shoemaker used to say, people like Bill have repeated their legends for so long that they have fooled even themselves. And once the legend gets lodged in the minds of the second generation of owners it is not correctible. Bianchi today thinks the company started in 1958 (it was 1966) the Heiser sons thought theirs started in 1858 (it was 1874), Alessi thinks all its holsters were once patented (Lou had only one patent), El Paso Saddlery says it was founded 1890 (it was 1978), Milt Sparks makes its claims based on Bruce Nelson's legends (derived from Theodore).

It's tough for those of us who were 'there' and know the truth, when we try to compete as makers because 'dead men tell no tales' and there is a legion of chaps who spread the myths because its part of their own cred. Bill, and shooter Ken Hackathorn, repeat what they've heard until they lose track: do they KNOW it? Or did they hear it and assume it is true. The difference is called 'critical thinking'.

The online article you mentioned originally, is a 'puff' piece that is very common with publications that are either seeking favour, or advertising. The author won't know more than the man he is interviewing. I did email that pub suggesting it be corrected. No reply. How would they correct it without angering Bill? Him they know personally, me they dont.

These companies have no incentive to correct the record.

Napoleon was right. History is the version of past events that
people decide to agree upon. When the legend sound good and
is repeated often enough people are sure it must be true. The
legend of Tom Threepersons and Lee Trimble , over a campfire,
discussing what would be the ideal holster, and taking their
ideas to Myres and Brill is a good example. Another favorite of
mine is many folks refer to any holster with a hammer protector
as a Hank Sloan style. And then guys like Red comes along and
screws everything up with facts!

ispcapt · Oct 20, 2017

The Bianchi #56 was a paddle holster thumb break. I picked one up for a 2.5" Mod 19 in 1974 and it had been used for several years by an older FBI SA. It has a metal U shaped plate stitched between leather. On the bottom of the paddle is a leather strip which kept the holster from pulling out of your pants.

rednichols · Oct 20, 2017

ispcapt said:
The Bianchi #56 was a paddle holster thumb break. I picked one up for a 2.5" Mod 19 in 1974 and it had been used for several years by an older FBI SA. It has a metal U shaped plate stitched between leather. On the bottom of the paddle is a leather strip which kept the holster from pulling out of your pants.

Oh, geez, I'd forgotten about that old thing. It was one of John's, and the paddle wouldn't retain it in the pants so the strap was added inside the fold of the paddle itself -- the metal inside was soft galvanised steel so wouldn't clamp.

Better was the two-piece version, which I did to replace the original as a spring action: tempered spring shank in the holster, flexible spring in the paddle, riveted together after assembly; with the 'kidney' portion in galvanised steel so it could be shaped to the pelvis.

It was when Aker came to me whilst I operated Nichols Innovation, wanting a copy of it, that I created my first all-polymer paddle. "Too heavy, and as much work as building the holster itself" I explained to him, about the Bianchi version.

rednichols · Oct 20, 2017

My smarter-than-I-bride 'hotspotted' my tablet to my desktop so I can post pics again.

Bit of paddle history:

the '40s Barton Special that turnerriver mentioned

the '60s paddles as used by companies like Safety Speed

the '70s Bianchi paddle that's been mentioned

Galco began the moulded paddle revolution '80s

the '90s Nichols Innovation paddle still used today by many companies

There are more styles, during the series and after; but not before.

F B I paddle holster question

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