AIWB risks evaluated by John Lovell

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RenoHuskerDu

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Are you worried about appendix carry, afraid you'll shoot off your own family jewels? I was too.

"Racing stripes" are a story we've all heard in competitive shooting circles or at the range. But there are much worse risks, such as your femoral artery, and the risks exist with any carry position. It's the draw and re-holster that get ya.

John Lovell breaks it down, evaluating what parts of you are muzzled with various carry positions.

Is Appendix Carry Safe? - YouTube
 
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Back during the Quick Draw Craz, I saw two Blackhawks which had injured their owners.
When I saw these guns they were owned by two longtime friends who lived in different states.
Both guns were loaded with 357s and the gun guys were quick drawing and live firing .
Both guns prematurely discharged and shot down through the knee, resulting in amputation.
I was shocked when I heard the first telling in CO,
Then speechless when I heard it again in Miss!
 
THE PILGRIM said:
Back during the Quick Draw Craz, I saw two Blackhawks which had injured their owners.
When I saw these guns they were owned by two longtime friends who lived in different states.
Both guns were loaded with 357s and the gun guys were quick drawing and live firing .
Both guns prematurely discharged and shot down through the knee, resulting in amputation.
I was shocked when I heard the first telling in CO,
Then speechless when I heard it again in Miss!
Click to expand...

I caught the quick draw craze doing IPSC. That beep goes off and the timer starts. But my mentor was a cop with 900 men reporting to him, and he was strict.

Correct form first, then gradually work on speed later. Thousands of dry fires at home. Otherwise, hello ND, sooner or later. We had two at our range in one event. It happened to be cop day, and my mentor was livid with them.

I never had a ND. One DQ but the muzzle was safely downrange.
 
Now, what has old Univibe been saying? AIWB violates the second rule of gun safety. Autoemasculation is the least of your worries. Put a 9mm through the femoral artery, and nothing can save you. You'll have about a minute to regret your carry option as your life-blood spurts away . . .
 
Seriously?

"Warrior Poet Society" seems to be yet another self-annointed, experienced and well-qualified Youtube expert. It is amazing how much "intellect" can be broadcast by a couple of dudes with a camera and a "channel"... and seeking an audience." "Please remember to 'subscribe', 'like' and 'share'..."

I am not anti-appendix carry, but it isn't something I'd recommend to novices.
 
muzzleblast said:
"Warrior Poet Society" seems to be yet another self-annointed, experienced and well-qualified Youtube expert. It is amazing how much "intellect" can be broadcast by a couple of dudes with a camera and a "channel"... and seeking an audience." "Please remember to 'subscribe', 'like' and 'share'..."

I am not anti-appendix carry, but it isn't something I'd recommend to novices.
Click to expand...

You should check Lovell's background.
 
Univibe said:
Now, what has old Univibe been saying? AIWB violates the second rule of gun safety. Autoemasculation is the least of your worries. Put a 9mm through the femoral artery, and nothing can save you. You'll have about a minute to regret your carry option as your life-blood spurts away . . .
Click to expand...

In the video, Lovell uses a dowel in his barrel to show where the shot would go. Most of us men don't sit or stand with our thighs together. So the shot would pass harmlessly in most cases. If it hits your femoral, old Univibe is right. Very few minutes left in this world, unless your shooting buddy is a fireman, emt, etc, and acts quickly. Reach in there, pinch that artery off, and hold it all the way to the ER.
 
Regardless of his qualifications, IMHO he overstates the risks of 3 and 4 o'clock carry and understates the risks of AIWB. I'm not at all opposed to AIWB, but I do think you need to be honest about it.

His 'muzzle rods' and diagrams are static and 2 dimensional, and he doesn't really adress where that muzzle is pointed when you're moving dynamically. Most 3/4 holsters angle the muzzle back, which may endanger your buttock, but isn't going to be anywhere near the femoral artery or other important parts. Even in his AIWB demo, it's clear the gun isn't doing what he's showing in his diagram...

51739591222_5ddc59b91b_c.jpg


He really glosses over sitting, where the 3/4 carry generally doesn't even flag your body, and AIWB is at it's worst.

I personally know of one AD in a 3 o'clock holster with a straight cant. It was kydex holster that pinched the trigger on a 1911, and the shooter neglected to re-engage the thumb safety after shooting a Glock most of the day. The shooter was standing and not moving when it happened. This occurred on a law enforcement range in the late 1990s. The .45 230g FMJ traveled through his right buttock, down the back of his thigh and lodged in the back of his knee. Nowhere near the femoral artery. Obviously a significant injury, but he recovered and returned to work.

Carry how you want, just make sure you understand the real risks/benefits, not just what a Youtube "personality" thinks about it...
 
Thinking this through and weighing risks/benefits is critical, as you say. I agree with you entirely. It's also the purpose of my OP. I live in Texas, work church security, and saw that man lose his life, daughter crying, because he stood up to draw from 4pm on a drawn Shockwave 12g. I bet we all saw the video. Many mistakes led to his death, but with AIWB he could have drawn from seated and probably not be seen until he presented.

With my T1C AIWB rig, I did the dowel test myself and figure I would lose my right nut and damage my chair, if seated. But I already have plenty of kids. An AD would have to be a malfunction, pretty much impossible with modern weapons.

If it were an ND it would likely be on re-holstering or draw. Re-holstering indeed presents a serious risk. I re-holster by sight, with the butt tight against my belly. If an ND were on draw all bets are off as to where the bullet would go, because the muzzle moves around a lot. Add adrenaline and it's unpredictable. Practicing your clothing defeat/draw/present in the mirror, unchambered, is necessary. In IPSC we would also video each other in slowmo, then review later.
 
Rodan said:
I personally know of one AD in a 3 o'clock holster with a straight cant. It was kydex holster that pinched the trigger on a 1911, and the shooter neglected to re-engage the thumb safety after shooting a Glock most of the day. The shooter was standing and not moving when it happened. This occurred on a law enforcement range in the late 1990s. The .45 230g FMJ traveled through his right buttock, down the back of his thigh and lodged in the back of his knee. Nowhere near the femoral artery. Obviously a significant injury, but he recovered and returned to work.
Click to expand...

Interesting story. I'm curious as to what happened to the grip safety that is supposed to prevent this from happening with a 1911?
 
While I haven’t watched this particular video, I frequently do watch videos in this vein. I do so not because I crave “expert” advice; I do so to hear the opinions of other people on subjects I’ve given some thought to. I’m a grown man, fully capable of making my own decisions, but—as we used to say in the Army—“None of us is as smart as all of us.”

I frequently carry appendix, but I do so with full knowledge that it poses risks that other methods of carry do not. I mitigate this risk by avoiding holstering; rather, I put the gun in Kydex holster first and *then* put it on my belt.

I believe in the Four Rules, but anyone who treats them as inviolable dogma is…well, just as wrong as someone who’d take the advice of a YouTube “expert” at face value.
 
shooter1911 said:
Interesting story. I'm curious as to what happened to the grip safety that is supposed to prevent this from happening with a 1911?
Click to expand...

The grip safety on a 1911 is naturally depressed when you have a firing grip, which you do when holstering.

Two factors contributed to this particular incident. The first, as I noted was the shooter failed to engage the thumb safety. This was actually an instructor course, and the shooter, who had carried a 1911 for years, was also working with a Glock during the course as we were just beginning to issue them and he wanted to gain experience with it. Switching back and forth, he neglected to engage the thumb safety on the 1911 before holstering.

The second issue was the holster itself, which was kydex. This was the early days of kydex, and most of the kydex holsters at that time used a molded in 'pinch' on the trigger guard to retain the gun. Unfortunately, the 1911 in question was a Gold Cup, which has a wider trigger than a standard 1911. Not the fault of the holster, which was designed for a 'normal' 1911, and an issue that had never been a problem because the thumb saftey had always been engaged. This time it wasn't, and the 'pinch' was enough to depress the wide Gold Cup trigger and cause the gun to discharge.
 
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The Bruce Nelson "forward of hip" position allows a seated draw with the muzzle to the outside of the leg. In clock terminology, about 2 o'clock.

Cooper made a mistake in describing Bruce as using the appendage position.

The photo is from an article by Bruce in 1980 in a long defunct publication.
 

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Are there any documented cases of a person carrying AIWB with a modern gun and Kydex holster designed for that gun shooting himself in the femoral artery or femur and dying?
 
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Rodan said:
SNIP
...shooter, who had carried a 1911 for years, was also working with a Glock during the course as we were just beginning to issue them and he wanted to gain experience with it. Switching back and forth, he neglected to engage the thumb safety on the 1911 before holstering.
...SNIP.
Click to expand...

I'm going offroad a little and certainly some of you will not agree with my policy. Some might even get mad. Here we go...

I'm not interested in gaining experience with any carry firearm I'm not planning to adopt. I dropped Glock and went Smith mainly on cost, considering both brands to be reliable and satisfactory. Austrian Glocks are inexpensive in yurrup where we lived for decades, but imported Smiths were pricey there. When we moved home to Texas, in the Trump slump, Smith prices were unbeatable...$225 for a Shield, for example.

The one word that describes my arms strategy is standardize. I've never carried any pistol other than a Glock or Smith MP. I want myself and my family to be completely familiar with the weapons we carry. I gather this victim was planning to switch to Glock. Mixing both at the range or using the same holster is something I would not do.

I take the time to hold and closely inspect other weapons, but I have no interest in firing or carrying them. Other guys show me their guns at the range and gee that's neat and God bless 'em, but I will stick with my standard weapons. My policy extends to choice of long and scatter guns as well as which calibers. We standardize on 22lr, 17hmr, 9mm, 223, 308, 12g.

FYI
 
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CB3 said:
Are there any documented cases of a person carrying AIWB with a modern gun and Kydex holster designed for that gun shooting himself in the femoral artery and dying?
Click to expand...


Do you want to be the first?

Jeff Cooper adjures us to "Never point a firearm at anything you're not willing to destroy."

I'm not willing to destroy my genitals, my femur, or my femoral artery.
 
Univibe said:
Now, what has old Univibe been saying? AIWB violates the second rule of gun safety. Autoemasculation is the least of your worries. Put a 9mm through the femoral artery, and nothing can save you. You'll have about a minute to regret your carry option as your life-blood spurts away . . .
Click to expand...


Once all the appendix carriers bleed out and all.the revolver carriers get killed in gang attack shootouts because they ran out of ammo,all that will be left is the hip carrying hicap owners running and gunning, reloading on the move in John wick style shootouts. You will reign supreme.
 
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No ... I never worry about IWB discharges .
A shot fired with the muzzel inserted inside your waist band is going to hit something ... something important ... appendix or anywhere around the belt line ! So will a gun discharged in a belt (OWB) holster ...it will hit some part of you .
Learn to draw without pulling the trigger ...if you must , just pretend you have some common sense ...
Gary
 
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