Head Scratchin' 9mm Revolver Load Issue

I'm having a problem with my new 986+ hand loads backing out and locking up the cylinder rotation.
Everything is the same but the bullets. Same brand new re-sized never fired Starline cases. Same 5.0g Ramshot Silhouette powder charge, same S&B primers, same .002" taper crimp.
The difference in bullets is one is .356" Missouri 125g LSWC, 12 brinell non-coated @ 1.060"oal. The other is .355" X-Treme 124g RN plated @ 1.140"oal. The Missouri LSWC backs out and jams the cylinder rotation along with binding the ejector rod that calls for bumping the rod off the wood table to get the fired rounds free and the X-Treme plated shoots fine with no jamming. Also the X-Treme bullet rounds will shoot all the way down to 4.5g of Silhouette and functions fine. The Missouri bullet jams at 4.5g, 4.8g and 5.0g, with 5.0g being max load. So why would the lead bullet not expand the case enough to catch the chamber wall but the plated bullet does? I'm missing something here.......Thoughts?
PS- I shot factory Federal 115g RN and they work fine, which is leaving me with this pressure thing.

Are you using LFCD? Your crimp on the cast bullet may be sizing down the bullet, and you are not getting enough neck tension. Causing bullet creep in the cylinder. Pull one of the bullets and put a micrometer on them.

Why are you mentioning the charge weights when that doesn't effect bullet pull? Neck tension is important and with most revolver ammo the proper roll crimp into the crimp groove. Unfortunately semi-auto bullets are different so brass neck tension is very important and crimp may help but it's not a cure for poor neck tension. Try a light roll crimp without damaging the bullet. That might help.

Did you post this on another forum?

Cobbler said:

I'm having a problem with my new 986+ hand loads backing out and locking up the cylinder rotation.
Everything is the same but the bullets. Same brand new re-sized never fired Starline cases. Same 5.0g Ramshot Silhouette powder charge, same S&B primers, same .002" taper crimp.
The difference in bullets is one is .356" Missouri 125g LSWC, 12 brinell non-coated @ 1.060"oal. The other is .355" X-Treme 124g RN plated @ 1.140"oal. The Missouri LSWC backs out and jams the cylinder rotation along with binding the ejector rod that calls for bumping the rod off the wood table to get the fired rounds free and the X-Treme plated shoots fine with no jamming. Also the X-Treme bullet rounds will shoot all the way down to 4.5g of Silhouette and functions fine. The Missouri bullet jams at 4.5g, 4.8g and 5.0g, with 5.0g being max load. So why would the lead bullet not expand the case enough to catch the chamber wall but the plated bullet does? I'm missing something here.......Thoughts?
PS- I shot factory Federal 115g RN and they work fine, which is leaving me with this pressure thing.

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Sorry, but I'm not understanding this question in context with your original question.

The truth of the matter is some shooters have problems with Starline brass in their 9mm revolvers. Extensive discussions on the enos forum which is also a topic among revo shooters in my area and at least 1 well respected gunsmith that works on these revolvers.

I have a 929 which gave me some issues at first. Then I went to a dedicated brass headstamp and moon clips. No problems since. And I'm not bashing starline, I have a lot of it, works fine in my 9mm semi-autos and my 45 acp 1911

I believe the OP is talking about cases backing up against the recoil shield upon firing and sticking there, causing difficulty rotating the cylinder between shots and difficulty ejecting...not bullets jumping the crimp/creeping.

TripleLock said:

I believe the OP is talking about cases backing up against the recoil shield upon firing and sticking there, causing difficulty rotating the cylinder between shots and difficulty ejecting...not bullets jumping the crimp/creeping.

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Interesting, never heard of that one before.
What would make them stick to the recoil shield?

Tapered cases try to back out of their chambers. It was extreme with the .22 Jet and .256 Winchester but the 9mm is tapered, too, to a much smaller degree but still tapered. As a cartridge is fired, the back of the cartridge's powder column ignites first and expands the rear of the case first, so it pushes backwards. S&W's most shootable 9mm revolver, the Model 547, had an extra pin above the firing pin, struck by the hammer as the firing pin was. It was called the limit pin and it's purpose was to push the case forward in the chamber so it didn't back up as it fired.

Revolvers usually have cases with straight walls, like the .38 Special, so they try to stay put better.

I can't answer why the 986 does this with one load and not with a similar load.

I think the problem with the .22 Jet and the .256 backing out could be overcome by degreasing thoroughly both cases and chambers with solvent. No trace of resizing lube , oil, etc. can remain.

Bugkiller99 said:

Are you using LFCD? Your crimp on the cast bullet may be sizing down the bullet, and you are not getting enough neck tension. Causing bullet creep in the cylinder. Pull one of the bullets and put a micrometer on them.

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No, I never had the need to use FCD on lead bullets.

Were the new cases sized before loading and did you use a Lee Factory Crimp Die? I believe either of these may solve the problem but both employed together would solve the problem.

TripleLock said:

I believe the OP is talking about cases backing up against the recoil shield upon firing and sticking there, causing difficulty rotating the cylinder between shots and difficulty ejecting...not bullets jumping the crimp/creeping.

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That's correct.....

The 9 mm is tough to get right with cast bullets. They can be sized down buy the taper crimp die , while in the case. After taper crimping, they are no longer tight in the case.
Plated and jacketed bullets are harder and don't get sized down by the taper crimper. Try adjusting the taper crimp die so it just takes the bell or flare off the case, no more . The .356 bullet should stay put by case tension .
The 9 mm and cast bullets are a pain to get all the kinks worked out, but once you get everything figured out then they reload OK .
I solved my problems by sizing cast bullets to .357 and using the taper crimp die to remove the flare mouth, no more. After doing this that problem was licked. Then we had seating depth to work out, got that solved and now that pesky little round is at last cooperating .
Gary

gboling said:

Were the new cases sized before loading and did you use a Lee Factory Crimp Die? I believe either of these may solve the problem but both employed together would solve the problem.

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Yes, I resized all my new cases and do not use the FCD. Now there was a gentleman at the range today that asked if I was using a Lee Full Length Resizing Die (FLRD) and I said yes. He said I should use an RCBS or Redding since they're full length dies are cut with the taper of the 9mm. I though it strange the Lee FLRD would NOT be cut with the taper, so that never ever entered my mind. BUT, the plated bullets shoot fine from the Lee FLRD cases.

ralph7 said:

Sorry, but I'm not understanding this question in context with your original question.

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What I mean is why when shooting the lead bullet does the case NOT expand enough to keep it from backing out. Whereas the plated bullet allows the case to stay in place by the case expanding properly to grip the inside of the chamber.

ArchAngelCD said:

Why are you mentioning the charge weights when that doesn't effect bullet pull? Neck tension is important and with most revolver ammo the proper roll crimp into the crimp groove. Unfortunately semi-auto bullets are different so brass neck tension is very important and crimp may help but it's not a cure for poor neck tension. Try a light roll crimp without damaging the bullet. That might help.

Did you post this on another forum?

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Both bullets do NOT have a crimp groove, so I can only use a taper crimp. I did not try another forum. One at a time....

Thomas15 said:

The truth of the matter is some shooters have problems with Starline brass in their 9mm revolvers. Extensive discussions on the enos forum which is also a topic among revo shooters in my area and at least 1 well respected gunsmith that works on these revolvers.

I have a 929 which gave me some issues at first. Then I went to a dedicated brass headstamp and moon clips. No problems since. And I'm not bashing starline, I have a lot of it, works fine in my 9mm semi-autos and my 45 acp 1911

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Does your 929 allow you to shoot the round without a moon clip, my 627 does with .357 and 38 Special? The 986 does not, you must use a moon clip.

Cobbler said:

What I mean is why when shooting the lead bullet does the case NOT expand enough to keep it from backing out. Whereas the plated bullet allows the case to stay in place by the case expanding properly to grip the inside of the chamber.

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I understand that now that it was explained that the tie up wasn't because of bullets being pulled out.
So the cases stay back in the recoil shield and tie the gun up that way? What keeps them locked back there?

ralph7 said:

Sorry, but I'm not understanding this question in context with your original question.

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Makes two of us!
The only thing I understand here is about the taper crimp.The way I've been explained to do it is measure the diam of bullet(here .356)+ measure the thickness of brassXby 2 and add up.In this case if the brass is .005 thick at the mouth,that would give a crimped total of .366''.
This for the bullet staying in the case under recoil.But overpressure is totally another problem...exept if I'm missing a beat here.
Qc

Cobbler said:

Does your 929 allow you to shoot the round without a moon clip, my 627 does with .357 and 38 Special? The 986 does not, you must use a moon clip.

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No the 9mm is rimless so you have to use moons in the 929. I had my 686 cut for moons and I can go both ways but not on a 9mm revolver.

A couple of points, I'm not sure exactly which moons I use (thickness of the moons), I got them from the revolver supply company they work and are not too expensive but will not last as long as say the TK customs which are about $8.00 each.

The point is you have to use moons specific to the brass you use. Not all 9mm has the same ejector grove dimensions and not all moon clips work the exact same. If you go to TK customs website I think there is some information on this topic. If you want to save money call the owner of the revolver supply company and he will tell you everything you need to know. Another low cost option is Ranch Products but I haven't used them or spoken to them.

Crimp. I'm loading 9mm to meet USPSA minor power factor for revolver. My set up uses Dillon dies on a LNL press. It is a light target load, coated lead Bayou RN 135g 9mm bullets ( I think they measure .358) and a light taper crimp. You have to use a taper crimp. If your not having problems getting the loaded moon clips to load in the charge holes then your probably sizing your brass to acceptable dimensions. They should just plunk right into the cyl with no hesitation. Question? Is there any front to back play of the brass when loaded in the moon clips? Is there any end shake in the cylinder? Does the star ejector lie flat against the cylinder? What moon clips are you using? Have you tried Federal or Winchester brass?

I'm not shilling for anyone or any company or any website but go over to Brian Enos website and spend a couple days browsing the revolver area there is a lot of discussion on this and lots of loads/situations/solutions specific to S&W 9mm revolvers. Spend 5 minutes there and you will read enough to convince yourself that starline brass, good as it is, causes problems with these guns.

I think you are going to end up using one specific brass headstamp and one specific moon clip with a narrow range of powder charges. You might also try using 38 short colt brass which is a straight wall cartridge not tapered like 9mm. Full disclosure, I'm no expert on this but I know a few things. But there are tons of folks more knowledgeable on these things and could poke holes in what I'm saying. The rimless 9mm cartridge and the titanium cylinder are different from most classic S&W revolvers.