General question about decocking....

JSR III said:

When making the gun safe while in your home, can you explain to me which direction is "safe" from AD. Just wondering whether the floor, walls or ceiling are the best? Since I live on the second floor, I am guessing the residents of the first floor would most likely prefer that I not point toward the floor when choosing!!!

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I was faced with that issue when I transferred to DC in the second floor condo I rented. (I refer to those years as the "dark age".) If you've got Class IIIa body armor it's an obvious choice to use as a safe direction - once you've taken it off.

However, a cheap and simple solution is a variation on the military theme of using a 55 gallon drum half filled with sand and placed at a 45 degree angle that can be used as a safe back stop while clearing the weapon.

A 30 or 55 gallon drum is serious overkill for pistol purposes, and a 5 gallon bucket filled about 2/3rds full of sand is more than enough.

I cut a 4" hole in the center of the lid, and then covered that by gluing a 6" circle of neoprene cut from a mouse pad. It keeps the sand in and the cat out.

I've never had an AD, but if I had, the sand would have stopped the bullet and the only potential issue for the neighbors would have been the loud noise.

A 5 gallon bucket, lid and a bag of sand from Lowe's will cost you about $10.

Whenever I decock any pistol, I always ease the hammer down manually in addition to using the lever dedicated to decock.

So, with a Beretta, Sig, Walther PPK, my Makarov PM: hold hammer with left hand, then use decock lever, and slowly lower the hammer.

I do this mostly because letting the hammer slam down with a decocker CAN cause undue wear on some pistols. The Walther PPK and P38's were notorious for 'breaking themselves' after decocking many times.

Inusuit said:

Five gallon bucket of sand will create a safe direction.

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This ^ ^ ^

I was going to type something similar when I got to the bottom of the scroll . . .

The first decocker gun I ever experienced was the M9. We were taught to load, chamber, decock, and flip the safety to off. We did not touch the trigger or the hammer at any point in that process. It was a little disconcerting at first because the hammer falls hard. Nothing ever broke.

Now I have a 1076 with the frame decocker and a couple of Sigs. They all catch and lower the hammer slowly.

De-cocking levers vary a bit based on the pistol, but I am not aware of any de-cocking lever system that does not incorporate a hammer block to prevent a discharge.

But, like any "safety" system it's best not to regard it as 100% reliable and there are sound reasons for that.

Fire control parts have to be hard to wear well, but hard steel is also brittle steel. Gun makers get around this by making the parts from soft, but tough steel and then very carefully face hardening the outer surfaces so that they will wear well.

That's actually what gun makers also do on all high strength, high wear parts like the receiver. Receivers are also cast or forged from soft, tough steel, and then face hardened for good wear resistance.

It's one reason why some hammers and sears are not amenable to having the surfaces filed or ground to lighten the trigger pull. If you take off too much metal, you'll get underneath the hardened steel on the surface and the result will be a trigger that wither feel soft and gummy from the get go, or will feel great for a few hundred rounds, but then start to malfunction as the surfaces wear excessively.

But I digress...one problem with de-cockers is that those hard on the outside, tough on the inside parts tend to harden with age and with repeated impacts. The combination of age and impacts can result in the crystalline structure on the outside of the part (what makes it hard) migrating deeper into the metal, and over enough time and enough impacts, that hardening of the metal internally makes the part brittle and sooner or later it will break.

When you de-cock a pistol the hammer falls on to the hammer block and both parts have to absorb the impact.

That's a known issue with the Walther PP series pistols, where the de-cocker incorporates the hammer block on the shaft of the de-cocking lever and that shaft has been known to crack or break.

The PP and PPK were the first DA/SA de-cocker equipped pistols to come to market in 1929 (PP) and 1931 (PPK). So we're talking pretty old pistols here. But a prudent PP owner will hold the hammer when he activates the de-cocking lever and ease it forward.

Hardening of fire control parts is also a known issue on the M9. A friend of mine was a career armorer in the US Army who was asked why some 20 year old but low round count M9s were suffering breakages of fire control parts. He pointed out the fact that they are function checked every time they are checked into or out of an arms room, used or re-assembled, and for some pistols carried on a daily basis, MP's etc) that may mean 20 years of function checks being done 260 plus days a year.

The US Army's function check involves dropping the slide 3 time, and dropping the hammer 3 times, meaning the hammer and side both absorb 3 impacts, or over the course of 5000+ function checks over 20 years, about 15000+ impacts. If the poor thing is used in training unit where it may be reassembled and function checked multiple times a day, the numbers can get huge even if it never fires a round.

What you won't find anymore is de-cocking the hammer on an M9 during a routine function check. You'll activate the safety with the hammer down, but you won't activate the safety/de-cocker lever with the hammer cocked in the normal course of function checking an M9.

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On the other hand most shooters don't shoot their pistols enough for hardening of the de-cocker parts to ever become a problem, so unless it's an old pistol or a heavily used pistol, it's primarily a theoretical concern.

Unless you live in an apartment with someone below you....just point it at the floor and flip the switch,hammer drops,don't worry about it.

I've had two Beretta 92's,two P38's,two S&W 3rd gens and I never,EVER worried about it going off-and if it does I've got it pointed in a safe enough direction so~meh,you'll live but your ears will ring.

Now Taurus quality is (sometimes) iffy and they've had their gremlins so I'd possibly be a tad more careful with one,just don't be a fool and point it at you or at a wall,you'll be fine.

The whole issue is kind of "mute" on decocking and safe direction.

The pistol is a DA/SA

If it is carried with the hammer down it will function in a DA mode so there is really no need to decock it on a regular basis.
So how many times do you need to do that?

yes, when you first load it, but then if you carry it cocked and "locked" (with just a thumb safety)you are on your own as there is no grip safety

My Sig has been loaded for a long time and I do not worry about dropping the hammer, no way I carry it in single action as there is no safety.

JSR III said:

...can you explain to me which direction is "safe" ...

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Inusuit said:

Five gallon bucket of sand will create a safe direction.

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Even the bucket of sand isn't perfectly safe. What the rule should say is, "Keep the muzzle pointed in the safest direction." That direction will depend on the situation. Of course the bucket of sand is a good one.

Rastoff said:

Even the bucket of sand isn't perfectly safe. What the rule should say is, "Keep the muzzle pointed in the safest direction." That direction will depend on the situation. Of course the bucket of sand is a good one.

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If the muzzle of a handgun is pointed directly perpendicular to the floor, I would lay under a five gallon bucket full of sand (with an inch of clearance between the bottom of the bucket and me) and let you discharge a round into the bucket . . .

JSR III said:

When making the gun safe while in your home, can you explain to me which direction is "safe" from AD. Just wondering whether the floor, walls or ceiling are the best? Since I live on the second floor, I am guessing the residents of the first floor would most likely prefer that I not point toward the floor when choosing!!!

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I don't know your home: you do.

Remember the safety rules : "know what's behind your target ' and 'don't point your gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy'.

Apply the rules to your situation.

I can't do it for you since I'm not in your home, you are.

It's your responsibility to handle your pistol safely without regard to the limitations of your home.

Muss Muggins said:

If the muzzle of a handgun is pointed directly perpendicular to the floor, I would lay under a five gallon bucket full of sand (with an inch of clearance between the bottom of the bucket and me) and let you discharge a round into the bucket . . .

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I agree. Pistol bullets are not going to penetrate very far at all in a 5 gallon bucket of sand. It doesn't get any safer than that - unless you can't hit a five gallon bucket of sand from point blank range.

Kronos said:

Unless you live in an apartment with someone below you....just point it at the floor and flip the switch,hammer drops,don't worry about it.

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It depends on the floor. A hardwood floor will have an expensive hole in it. A carpeted floor will be almost as bad. If you're lucky and hit a waterline or drain line under the floor, life will get even more interesting.

If you live on a concrete slab, you'll discover just how big a chip of concrete will get knocked out of the floor and you'll be picking spall to of your feet and legs.

Bullets on concrete are also not like billard balls on a pool table - they don't bounce off at the same angle they impacted. Unless they are more or less perpendicular to the floor, they tend to skip along the floor and with a shallow enough angle you could still put the bullet through a wall.

Bucket of sand = cheap insurance.

Rule3 said:

The whole issue is kind of "mute" on decocking and safe direction.

The pistol is a DA/SA

If it is carried with the hammer down it will function in a DA mode so there is really no need to decock it on a regular basis.
So how many times do you need to do that?

yes, when you first load it, but then if you carry it cocked and "locked" (with just a thumb safety)you are on your own as there is no grip safety

My Sig has been loaded for a long time and I do not worry about dropping the hammer, no way I carry it in single action as there is no safety.

Click to expand...

The major use of a de-cocker is in the administrative handling of the pistol - loading, unloading, and de-cocking after you are done firing.

However, those administrative functions also tend to account for the majority of ADs, so it's worth it to take the time and attention to ensure you do it correctly, and safely.

Once is enough.....

Rule3 said:

The whole issue is kind of "mute" on decocking and safe direction.

The pistol is a DA/SA

If it is carried with the hammer down it will function in a DA mode so there is really no need to decock it on a regular basis.
So how many times do you need to do that?

yes, when you first load it, but then if you carry it cocked and "locked" (with just a thumb safety)you are on your own as there is no grip safety

My Sig has been loaded for a long time and I do not worry about dropping the hammer, no way I carry it in single action as there is no safety.

Click to expand...

If I need to once, I'd like to do it right.

I'm not going to keep it cocked and locked. I'm spending a lot of time now learning to shoot compact DAO guns. I'd be confident to pull the trigger in DA mode and follow up with SA. I appreciate this feature over a gun that would operate only with the hammer cocked. It makes more sense for defense. (Hey, that rhymes).

'Safe' is where.....

Safe is where there are no living things. The expense of what you could hit instead is of secondary importance. Probably the Ming vase isn't a good choice.

BB57 said:

It depends on the floor. A hardwood floor will have an expensive hole in it. A carpeted floor will be almost as bad. If you're lucky and hit a waterline or drain line under the floor, life will get even more interesting.

If you live on a concrete slab, you'll discover just how big a chip of concrete will get knocked out of the floor and you'll be picking spall to of your feet and legs.

Bullets on concrete are also not like billard balls on a pool table - they don't bounce off at the same angle they impacted. Unless they are more or less perpendicular to the floor, they tend to skip along the floor and with a shallow enough angle you could still put the bullet through a wall.

Bucket of sand = cheap insurance.

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......My place has several bullet holes right now,and I put them there reasons being mice,my cats ticking me off et cetera.

Bullet holes aren't hard to fix,stuff tends to get beat on if you live in it,actually do stuff in your home.

9MM is LOUD inside an enclosure I can tell you!

So any extra holes on account of a gun not working won't tend to bother me.

I think keeping one of these around solves the issue!

We did kinda.....

Rule3 said:

I think keeping one of these around solves the issue!

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We did kinda drift off the original subject, didn't we?

rwsmith said:

We did kinda drift off the original subject, didn't we?

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No, just keep a dead horse in the apartment and point gun (safe direction) at it when decocking the firearm

It's amazing how many pistols have this feature so there must be a study somewhere on how many have gone off while decocking

Think the gun makers would make them if that was a problem??

Heck striker fired guns make me more nervous.

I will have to check my owners manual when I get home but if I'm not mistaken, if you lower the hammer on Sig 229s, a hammer block will NOT be engaged UNLESS you use the decocker lever. Thus the hammer could feasibly hit the firing pin and fire the piece if dropped. I always use the decocker lever.
Be safe,
Scott

Kronos said:

......My place has several bullet holes right now,and I put them there reasons being mice,my cats ticking me off et cetera.

Bullet holes aren't hard to fix,stuff tends to get beat on if you live in it,actually do stuff in your home.

9MM is LOUD inside an enclosure I can tell you!

So any extra holes on account of a gun not working won't tend to bother me.

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I don't even know how to begin to respond to this . . .