11e40
Member
trying to load some .308 win. sie. 180 gr. rn for hog hunting. need some info. for subsonic loads. i have trail boss & imr 4759 & 2400 on hand. any info appreciated. will be using a rem 700 20" bbl. with a can. thanks.
imr 4759 .308 ss load ?
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MichiganScott
Member
An old IMR manual I have on hand lists 26.5gr of SR 4759 as max with a pressure of 51200 c.u.p. and 2085 fps. I don't think you could reduce that by enough to be subsonic. Trail Boss would probably be a better choice.
It's been my experience that lighter bullets behave better with reduced loads because the longer bullets may not spin fast enough for stability and they keyhole.
It's been my experience that lighter bullets behave better with reduced loads because the longer bullets may not spin fast enough for stability and they keyhole.
In my 30-06 I shoot the Speer or Hornady 100gr plinker with 20grs of 4759 for a light 50 yard rabbit or paper killer load.
At 50 yards you shoot, hear a noise, wait a little bit , then hear the bullet hit the paper target. Never put it on the chrony but it may be sub-sonic ?
You might need to go to a 25 cal. pellet gun ?
At 50 yards you shoot, hear a noise, wait a little bit , then hear the bullet hit the paper target. Never put it on the chrony but it may be sub-sonic ?
You might need to go to a 25 cal. pellet gun ?
I'm glad you are asking.....
I'm glad to see someone else asking about 4759. I've been trying to find light loads for cast carbine bullets in my 30-06. Just from my little bit of knowledge at those velocities I think you would be better served with a pistol powder. The lowest I've seen it go is around 1400 fps. 4759 might be able to do it, but finding verified information about it is pretty tough. I seem to have a knack in reloading for wanting to go where no man has gone before. Well, maybe a few, but finding the info is nigh impossible.
I'm glad to see someone else asking about 4759. I've been trying to find light loads for cast carbine bullets in my 30-06. Just from my little bit of knowledge at those velocities I think you would be better served with a pistol powder. The lowest I've seen it go is around 1400 fps. 4759 might be able to do it, but finding verified information about it is pretty tough. I seem to have a knack in reloading for wanting to go where no man has gone before. Well, maybe a few, but finding the info is nigh impossible.
venomballistics
Member
the two best 30 - 06 SS loads I managed were built around cast lead.
lead can give you your velocity at a lower pressure.
Lee 180 grain RN .. between 7.5 and 8 g blue dot with a fed 215 magnum primer
Lee 200 G RN Between 7.5 and 8.2 grains of blue dot and a Fed magnum primer.
When I say "between" .. somewhere in this range you will hit 1050 FPS. thats your goal with any SS round. any faster creates a a sort of tearing sound due to air compression, and 1100 is where you;ll find a pronounced crack.
I used magnum primers after finding them to greatly enhance load consistency. either has been able to produce single digit ES figures in the 30-06
Where 308 is kinda similar, but smaller case volume, it should still be close enough to find similar behavior.
start at 8G with either and reduce, rather than increase your charge weights.
at the end of the loading project and testing, I strongly suspect that you'll adopt this load as a standard and your 22's will collect dust.
lead can give you your velocity at a lower pressure.
Lee 180 grain RN .. between 7.5 and 8 g blue dot with a fed 215 magnum primer
Lee 200 G RN Between 7.5 and 8.2 grains of blue dot and a Fed magnum primer.
When I say "between" .. somewhere in this range you will hit 1050 FPS. thats your goal with any SS round. any faster creates a a sort of tearing sound due to air compression, and 1100 is where you;ll find a pronounced crack.
I used magnum primers after finding them to greatly enhance load consistency. either has been able to produce single digit ES figures in the 30-06
Where 308 is kinda similar, but smaller case volume, it should still be close enough to find similar behavior.
start at 8G with either and reduce, rather than increase your charge weights.
at the end of the loading project and testing, I strongly suspect that you'll adopt this load as a standard and your 22's will collect dust.
The reason published data for light loads, both jacketed and lead, are hard to find is because everyone wants to shoot maximum loads. If the manuals had every loading possible for every cartridge made, it'd fill up a whole room, so they go with what people want to see the most.
Older Lyman manuals used to include some good reduced loads for jacketed bullets, but they seem to have gotten away from that field. Their Cast Bullet Manual is still one of the best to find light loads for lead bullets.
Speer manuals sometimes include a reduced load for their jacketed bullets, but not always, and not always with the same powder. The closest they list for a 180 gr. jacket bullet is with 24.0 grains of IMR4198, but the velocity is still 1591 fps., which is more than you'd probably want for subsonic.
There are some good powders that are very good for reduced loads, in fact there are some that are made for the purpose, although mostly for lead bullets. However, the bad part about using some powders, and Red Dot is a good example, is that they only give reduced velocities, while their pressures are very high. This leads the loader to believe he will be safe with increasing his charge if the velocity is lower than factory ammo.
IMR4198 is popular with reduced jacketed bullets because it is very versatile and isn't as sensitive to low load density as most other powders. I had also read an article a long time ago about using ten grains of Unique with "typical weight for caliber" jacketed bullets for "military caliber" cartridges, but can't tell you what kind of pressures they were getting and have never tried it personally.
Older Lyman manuals used to include some good reduced loads for jacketed bullets, but they seem to have gotten away from that field. Their Cast Bullet Manual is still one of the best to find light loads for lead bullets.
Speer manuals sometimes include a reduced load for their jacketed bullets, but not always, and not always with the same powder. The closest they list for a 180 gr. jacket bullet is with 24.0 grains of IMR4198, but the velocity is still 1591 fps., which is more than you'd probably want for subsonic.
There are some good powders that are very good for reduced loads, in fact there are some that are made for the purpose, although mostly for lead bullets. However, the bad part about using some powders, and Red Dot is a good example, is that they only give reduced velocities, while their pressures are very high. This leads the loader to believe he will be safe with increasing his charge if the velocity is lower than factory ammo.
IMR4198 is popular with reduced jacketed bullets because it is very versatile and isn't as sensitive to low load density as most other powders. I had also read an article a long time ago about using ten grains of Unique with "typical weight for caliber" jacketed bullets for "military caliber" cartridges, but can't tell you what kind of pressures they were getting and have never tried it personally.
I have a book by John Wootters on reloads that use Dacron or kapok, holding small powder charges next to the primer in his loads.
It is called............ the complete book of practical handloading. Stoeger sportsman's library .... 1976
He loaded round balls, mini ball, shot, even real bullets into rifle cases and showed how they worked.
A good read if you can find it.
It is called............ the complete book of practical handloading. Stoeger sportsman's library .... 1976
He loaded round balls, mini ball, shot, even real bullets into rifle cases and showed how they worked.
A good read if you can find it.
Speer#9
My Speer #9 encourages use of Dacron for reduced loads and goes into detail about how to do it. I did it and got great results and no residue. Nowadays Speer condemns it. I even asked them because it isn't in their #14 manual and I got a resounding "NO" in reply. Speer's point is that you don't know where the tuft and powder are in relation to each other when shooting time comes. The other is the possibility that it will 'ring' your barrel.
I think the tuft moving around is unlikely. I pulled some old bullets with an inertial puller and not only was the tuft in place in every one, it had expanded to fill the space up the neck to the rear of the seated bullet. All of the powder was where it was supposed to be.
As far as 'ringing' barrels, many people place the blame on too much air space between the wadding and the bullet base. Just like before the tuft had expanded to fill the space right up to the back of the bullet. Then some people think that melted plastic will plug your barrel and cause the 'ring'.
Personally, I like the tufts for reduced loads because I have had good luck with them. But I'm always thinking that I'm going to 'ring' my barrel one fine day. I think what I should do is compare with tufts and without tufts and see if there's a real difference.
PS I'd like to find a copy of that book.
BTW I've got a big bunch of Dacron within arm's reach as I type this.
My Speer #9 encourages use of Dacron for reduced loads and goes into detail about how to do it. I did it and got great results and no residue. Nowadays Speer condemns it. I even asked them because it isn't in their #14 manual and I got a resounding "NO" in reply. Speer's point is that you don't know where the tuft and powder are in relation to each other when shooting time comes. The other is the possibility that it will 'ring' your barrel.
I think the tuft moving around is unlikely. I pulled some old bullets with an inertial puller and not only was the tuft in place in every one, it had expanded to fill the space up the neck to the rear of the seated bullet. All of the powder was where it was supposed to be.
As far as 'ringing' barrels, many people place the blame on too much air space between the wadding and the bullet base. Just like before the tuft had expanded to fill the space right up to the back of the bullet. Then some people think that melted plastic will plug your barrel and cause the 'ring'.
Personally, I like the tufts for reduced loads because I have had good luck with them. But I'm always thinking that I'm going to 'ring' my barrel one fine day. I think what I should do is compare with tufts and without tufts and see if there's a real difference.
PS I'd like to find a copy of that book.
BTW I've got a big bunch of Dacron within arm's reach as I type this.
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scooter123
Member
First, IMO your bullet choice is horrible for a subsonic load. With the increased friction from the jacketing you face a real risk of squibbing your barrel with an experimental load. In addition I think that you need to go to a heavier bullet, NOT lighter.
There is load data available on the Net for subsonic loads in the new 300 Blackout and I would suggest looking at that as a starting point. IIRC these particular loads feature a 220 grain bullet but since I only glanced briefly at the article I could be wrong about the mass, it could have been a 240 grain bullet. I also have a vague memory of them being hard cast but don't hold me to that, could have been moly treated jacketed. Point is that there is some data out there for a different 30 caliber subsonic.
Bad news about that 300 Blackout data is that there is a big difference in case volume between the Blackout and the 308 W. So, you have a situation where you'll have excess case volume if you try and use that blackout data. With some powders that may be a concern, I've seen continuing opinions on hte net about excess case volume leading to detonation issues with some powders. Personally I don't really buy into this and think it's likely a fable and those explosions were actually double charges but I do not design smokeless powders for a living. In addition it's been well documented that with Black Powder excess volume between the bullet and charge will lead to detonation. So, while I don't think smokeless powders can detonate I'd still worry about this potention when going way off the charts with an experimental load.
There is load data available on the Net for subsonic loads in the new 300 Blackout and I would suggest looking at that as a starting point. IIRC these particular loads feature a 220 grain bullet but since I only glanced briefly at the article I could be wrong about the mass, it could have been a 240 grain bullet. I also have a vague memory of them being hard cast but don't hold me to that, could have been moly treated jacketed. Point is that there is some data out there for a different 30 caliber subsonic.
Bad news about that 300 Blackout data is that there is a big difference in case volume between the Blackout and the 308 W. So, you have a situation where you'll have excess case volume if you try and use that blackout data. With some powders that may be a concern, I've seen continuing opinions on hte net about excess case volume leading to detonation issues with some powders. Personally I don't really buy into this and think it's likely a fable and those explosions were actually double charges but I do not design smokeless powders for a living. In addition it's been well documented that with Black Powder excess volume between the bullet and charge will lead to detonation. So, while I don't think smokeless powders can detonate I'd still worry about this potention when going way off the charts with an experimental load.
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After I'd posted my response I realized I'd edited out part of it, where I suggested looking at the on-line sources. I have most of the powder co's. complimentary data on my Kindle and the only verifiable load I could find that even came close to subsonic was with Trail Boss. If you go to Hodgdon's/IMR's/Winchester's website's you can find a page specifically about Trail Boss in reduced loads.
The only other books I have with data where you are wanting to go are older than the .308 Win. cartridge.
If you have a copy of Lee's "Modern Reloading" First Edition there is an interesting article on reduced loads you might want to read. Just keep in mind, not all powders can be reduced that much with satisfactory results. Not that they are dangerous, just inconsistent.
Have you looked for a website that deals with shooting from cans?
The only other books I have with data where you are wanting to go are older than the .308 Win. cartridge.
If you have a copy of Lee's "Modern Reloading" First Edition there is an interesting article on reduced loads you might want to read. Just keep in mind, not all powders can be reduced that much with satisfactory results. Not that they are dangerous, just inconsistent.
Have you looked for a website that deals with shooting from cans?
venomballistics
Member
Exactly ... energy is a function of mass times the square of velocity.
Where velocity is fixed by the 1050 FPS speed limit, one must compensate with mass.
the lightest SS 30 cal I ever loaded was 150 G lead flat point.
I later abandoned the 1050 objective and cranked it up to 1300+ for small game and varmint use, where it did far better.
use a heavy bullet, use a lead bullet, preferably a hollow point design if you can find one.
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