223 or 5.56mm?

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Just recently got sucked into the 223/5.56 argument again. There
are H&R/ NEF Handy Rifles that have" do not use Military Ammo"
stamped in barrel. One of first 223s I owned was a 788 Rem
And owned several others. At time I had access to a lot of FMJ
military ammo, and shot 100s of rds through these rifles. Now
I have guys telling me that the 5.56 casing has had changes made. I know Black rifle crowd is always fooling with chamber
design. I say warning on barrel is probaly because of new heavier
bullets military adopted. Might cause pressure spike if bullet is
shoved into rifling. Bottom Line, is the 223 and 5.56 mm the
same case, as I have been treating them for 46 yrs?
 
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It's chamber specification : 223 is tighter, 5.56 is looser and 223 Wylde in between. Military ammo may produce higher pressure in 223 chamber. Here's pretty nice article .223 vs 5.56
 
It's somewhat more than chamber specs. The 5.56 x 45mm has a higher maximum average pressure limit than .223 (neeeded to make velocity specs at a longer instrumental distance). Since guns chambered for .223 have the tighter .223 SAAMI chamber you have a high probability of exceeding SAAMI pressure limits shooting 5.56mm in a .223 chamber. Note: just because the allowable maximum pressure is higher doesn't mean every ammo lot has higher pressures.

Now then, yes the cases are frequently the same. Winchester and Federal .223 and 5.56mm cases generally weigh the same and have the same case design. That may not be true in all cases. Remington developed the cartridge(s), but I've never weighed cases. OK, just weighted some Remington .223 they were actually slightly (<1 gr) heavier than LC and TW 5.56mm. Yes, you can use the same loading dies.
 
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As mentioned, the 5.56 and 223 cases can have differences in thickness and volume.
Some are the same.
The issue is to not use 5.56 load data or 5.56 factory loaded ammo in 223 gun.
The other way around is fine.
 
OK, way back in 70s when first reloading 5.56 cases, I did do a
volume check with water. I believe the GI load at this time was
55gr FMJ at 3250fps. I remember that with IMR 4198 there was
not enough case volume to duplicate velocity of the GI load. I
don't know how this got by for so long. There was 1000s of rds
of 5.56 mil shot up, mostly in 788s. Every farm boy in county
had one, because of cheap mil ammo. The sales pitch on 223s
was it was same ammo used in M-16. With all this shooting going
on with 5.56 in 223s I know of no problems. Even most dies
were marked 223/5.56mm.
 
The only difference that matters is throat length, .223 rifles with a 1 in 14 or 1 in 12 twist will have a shorter .0250 throat length. If a M885 5.56 cartridge is fired in a short throated .223 the chamber pressure will be approximately 5,000 psi higher than normal

223_zps6248614d.jpg


Both the .223 and 5.56 are loaded to the same chamber pressure of 55,000 psi. But the M16/AR15 rifles have a .0500 throat length and if fired in the shorter .0250 throat you will have higher than normal pressures.

"BUT" this is not written in stone, my Savage .223 with a 1 in 9 twist has a longer throat than my AR15 rifles.

Below on line "N" Freebore Length are just some the the different throat lengths. And as you can see below the PTG 223 Reminton Match chamber has one of the longest throats at .0680 vs the shortest .223 at .0250.

223-556_zpsf4f56449.jpg


Below some very good info on the .223/5.56. Look at the free Sierra load data, the .223 load data is for a 1 in 14 twist rifle and the load data for the AR15 has a 1 in 7 twist and a longer throat.

223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide
223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide within AccurateShooter.com

Bottom line, I can load my Savage .223 "warmer" than loads listed in the reloading manuals with the 1 in14 or 1 in12 twist rates with their shorter throats. And my Quickload software has at least three entries for the .223 and 5.56 and again its only the throat lengths that can change the chamber pressure. Or how CIP and the SAAMI measure chamber pressure.

And the European CIP the equivalent of the American SAAMI considers the .223/5.56 and the .308/7.62 to be the same cartridges. So don't let the "metric" fool you because our speed limit signs are in mph and not kph.
 
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OK, way back in 70s when first reloading 5.56 cases, I did do a
volume check with water. I believe the GI load at this time was
55gr FMJ at 3250fps. I remember that with IMR 4198 there was
not enough case volume to duplicate velocity of the GI load. I
don't know how this got by for so long. There was 1000s of rds
of 5.56 mil shot up, mostly in 788s. Every farm boy in county
had one, because of cheap mil ammo. The sales pitch on 223s
was it was same ammo used in M-16. With all this shooting going
on with 5.56 in 223s I know of no problems. Even most dies
were marked 223/5.56mm.

For load development, the rule is start low and work up
When approaching max loads, look for signs of too high of pressure

Note we have very few pressure measured data points in the load books for the the exact same bullet, twist rate, chamber, etc and it comes down to fuzzy guessing of the pressure
Pressure can't be calculated...it's like temperature, we can only measure it
And pressure-time curves show we shouldnt try to interpolate between them

46 years, 1000's of rounds -you report no problems
I'd say you've already worked up your load for your gun as we are supposed to
 
As mentioned, the 5.56 and 223 cases can have differences in thickness and volume.
Some are the same.

I'm not sure when this rumor is ever going to die. .308 Win and 7.62mm NATO brass is substantially different as the 7.62 NATO brass was made with a thicker web to better withstand the extraction forces in machine guns with the longer .7.62mm NATO chamber.

The 7.62mm NATO chamber is .0013" longer than the .308 Win chamber as measured from the base of the case to the datum point on the shoulder. This aides feeding of the round in hot and or dirty chambers, but it results in more stretch in the case when it's fired due to the longer headspace, so a thicker web was warranted.

.223/5.56 Brass thickness and case volume

Unlike .308 Win and 7.62mm NATO, there isn't any difference between .223 Rem and 5.56mm NATO cases. With the possible exception of some reportedly out of spec .223/5.56mm cases made in eastern Europe there is no significant difference between .223 Remington and 5.56mm military cases.

As an example, I used to buy BHA white box (factory seconds) and blue box (remanufactured) ammo when I lived in SD. While their red box ammo uses new brass with BHA head stamps, their .223 Remington white box and blue box loads use once fired brass and if you look in those boxes you'll usually find a mix of military and commercial brass. However most of their loads are still easily MOA capable, despite the mixed head stamps.

In my own reloading, I also don't bother sorting cases in .223 and I still get 1 MOA or sub MOA accuracy in my .223 bolt guns, heavy barrel Match ARs and bull barrel varmint ARs.

In short, it just doesn't make a difference.

223 Rem versus 5.56 NATO chambers

As noted in posts above, the only difference between .223 Remington and 5.56mm NATO is the more generous lead and throat dimensions in the 5.56mm NATO chamber. The rest of the chamber dimensions are identical.

The Wylde chamber splits the difference, intended to offer a compromise between the shorter lead and potentially better accuracy of the SAAMI spec .223 Rem chamber and the more generous and pressure tolerant 5.56mm NATO chamber.

.223 Rem and 5.56mm NATO pressure differences

The other widespread rumor that abounds is that 5.56mm NATO ammo has a higher maximum average pressure standard than .223 Remington ammo. That isn't the case - The NATO and SAAMI standards are identical at 55,000 psi. The CIP standard adds some confusion as it is listed as 62,000 psi but it's actually the same pressure, just measured by a different method.

What does matter...

The longer throated 5.56mm NATO chamber does make a difference when 5.56mm NATO ammo is loaded to the 55,000 psi maximum average pressure spec in a 5.56mm NATO chamber.

If you shoot that ammo in the shorter throated .223 Remington chamber, you may encounter higher pressures.

Dangerously, higher pressures? Probably not. Most firearms are proofed to 125% of the maximum average pressure, so while you may accelerate wear you probably won't blow anything up if you accidentally fire 5.56mm rounds in your .223 rifle. I just wouldn't make a habit of it.

There's also a fair amount of variation from the blueprinted chamber specs. New chamber reamers cut larger chambers than worn reamers, so the rifle made with a brand new reamer will have a large chamber than the final rifle made with that same reamer. Consequently, your mileage will probably vary compared to other shooters.

Some ancient history regarding the pressure myth...

The myth that 5.56mm ammo has a higher pressure does have a gain of truth to it as back when 5.56mm NATO was new and the Earth had just barely cooled, the original US military M193 round had to penetrate an M1 steel helmet at 500 yards.

This requirement was achieved in the original prototype .222 Special cartridge (which was renamed the .223 Remington) using IMR-4475 and a Stoner/Sierra designed .55 gr FMJ bullet at the original specified maximum average pressure of 53,000 psi. This bullet a long ogive and had a comparatively high BC that allowed it to retain velocity well.

However, when Remington and Winchester started loading the round for military contract purposes, the military required the use of a Remington designed 55 gr FMJ bullet with a shorter ogive and a lower BC. The result was that this short and squatty bullet lost more velocity over the 500m range and it consequently needed a greater muzzle velocity around 3,300 fps to retain enough velocity at 500m to penetrate that poor sacrificial M1 steel pot.

This was aggravated by a specified shift in propellant to WC846 - a colloidal ball powder used in 7.62mm NATO M80 ball ammo. An example, of McNamara's accounting focused whiz kids in action. WC 846 could be made much faster (2 days versus 2 weeks), was much safer to make (it used a wet process), and as an added bonus could be made from WWII surplus cannon powder, making it much less expensive. However, this created a propellent problem as most lots of WC846 could not meet the higher velocity now needed with the higher drag bullet that had also been specified.

When Remington and Winchester both refused to make any ammo under the existing criteria (which they regarded as impossible to meet), it created a need for a variance on the maximum allowable pressure and the allowable average was bumped up from 52,000 psi to 53,000 psi to meet the requirement (and Federal wanted 54,000 psi). The original and rather wide WC846 powder specification was also split into two narrower specifications, WC844 and WC846, to allow the end of the specification that was most effective in 5.56 M193 ball ammo to be called WC844 and used for M193 ammo production.

However, given the current SAAMI and NATO specs (and the CIP equivalent) of 55,000 psi, that's all water under the bridge as 52,000 versus 53,000 psi is a moot issue.
 
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I don't pay much attention to AR type guns. I quit subscribing to
Gun rags several years ago because of para military stuff being
the predominate subjects. As I stated before a lot of GI 5.56 was
fired in 223, mostly Rem 788s. I don't have a box of ammo to
check, but in 80s all the major brands came out with mil-spec
ammo. It ran $3-$4 box, and the new bulk ammo for 5.56, would
this be same as GI stuff? I am amazed this has come in under
the radar after so many years. I'm not talking just about me, I
know many guys that reload, mostly Varmit guns, and this has
not come up until recently. You would think there would have
been signs of hi-pressure, at least flattened primers. It is a wonder nobody got hurt, or ruined a gun. It makes me feel stupid
I load for 100+ cals, have worked with many wildcats- to work
up loads. Always have approached from bottom up. Just goes to
show you, there is always something to learn. When I look back
on this, I think a lot of this was caused by marketing of 223
rifles as same as M-16 ammo. It was something you didn't even
Question, just Lock & Load, it worked.
 
For the sake of safety, my newest Colt will shoot 5.56 or .223. My older Colts will shoot .223 only.
 
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My take on it....why not stick to what's stamped on the barrel? There's always plenty of 556 and .223 available. Unless we're under a shortage like we saw a few years ago...shoot what's stamped. If neither is available, then you're handloading and it doesn't make a difference if you're working up properly.
 
For the sake of safety, my newest Colt will shoot 5.56 or .223. My older Colts will shoot .223 only.

I have mixed feelings about that.

There are a a growing number of recently made firearms that were formerly chambered in .223 that are now chambered for 5.56mm, apparently to meet the desire for an increasing number o shooters to be able to shoot 5.56mm ammo with no concerns for increased pressure. I think it's a bad idea in some firearms

I don't mind it in some of my black rifles, such as my XM-177E2 clone or my M4gery but I appreciate the accuracy of my older Colt SP1s, and I want the shorter throated .223 chamber in my Match AR-15s as well as my precision and varmint rifles.

As an example of the downside of this 5.56 chambering practice, I have a total of three Zastava made mini mausers (sold over the years by Interarms as the Mini Mark X, Charles Daly as the Mini Mauser, Remington as the 799 and by Zastava as the Model 85). I never owned a Mark X or Mini Mark X (by any name) that was;t a tack driver - except one. Two of my mini Mausers are sub MOA rifles (1/2 MOA to 3/4 MOA) but the latest of the three has a 5.56mm NATO chamber and it is at best a 1 MOA rifle.

I'm annoyed enough with the reduced accuracy that I'm tempted to pull the barrel, turn it back a thread and re-cut the chamber with a .223 reamer.
 
BB57, very comprehensive post. This all makes sense to me.
The young Ar crowd have been reading all the articles on tricking
out their Rifles. Running around telling their dads and uncles
that they are going to blow up their 788s with the old 5.56s.
There had been a lot of confusing information put out on this.
With the demise of the groundhog in this area, most of the 223s
shot around here are ARs. So this whole deal is water under the
bridge. I carried a M-16 when in the service and never had any
problems with it. Back when all the 5.56 military was being
shot up in 788s, a Colt Ar was 149.99, and shops couldn't give
them away, because of bad press from VN. At the same time a
Colt 1911 was $100, and not a big seller. A GI would be lucky
to bring $40, used. Who would have thought this craze would
catch on.
 
AR-15s make a lot of sense if you look at them as "Legos for men".

It's a phenomenon that's also co-opted the Ruger 10/22 carbine. In 1964 when it was introduced it had a $54 price tag, and at the time, that $54 bucks had the same buying power as about $400 does today. Today however you can buy a Ruger 10/22 carbine for around $250.

It is not however the same 10/22. Back in the day it had a steel butt plate, a walnut stock, an aluminum trigger assembly and it was in fact a well made, moderately high end adult oriented .22 carbine. The 10/22 today has a birch or composite stock, a plastic butt plate and trigger assembly and is a rather low end .22 carbine.

But that works for Ruger as a modern 10/22 customer buys one with the immediate intent of "upgrading" it, so the low quality and the accompanying low purchase price are plusses.

The AR-15 fan boy is a bit more of an elitist as he first wants "mil-spec" parts and then eventually gets sold join the idea of buying high end boutique AR-15 parts - that don;t actually make him or it shoot any better. He'd be far better off just buying ammo and shooting more.

Unfortunately, that "upgrade" attitude bleeds over into other firearms. Kimber pistols are a good example. I've purchased three of them over the years and I've found them all to be accurate and reliable. The key here however is to:

1. Read the manual. (The average American male think s he knows how to field strip one, or thinks it strips like any other 1911, and he ends up trying to put the slide back on the frame with the grip safety depressed, putting the pin for the schwartz firing pin safety in the way. He batters it into place and then after doing this numerous times, he wonders why the Schwartz firing pin safety failed and blames the design).

2. Break the pistol in with a couple hundred rounds, as they tend to have close tolerances.

3. Don't mess with the engineering by adding aftermarket springs, shock buffers, etc. (On the short frame 1911s, changing springs or adding a shock buffer reduces the slide over run time and makes it less reliable.

4. Replace the springs on the recommended schedule with factory replacements.

5. Run it wet (1911s like oil).

The average 10/22 or AR-15 fan boy however buys a kimber and in the true AR-15 and 10/22 spirit, either immediately messes with it before even fire it, or puts 20 rounds through it and decides it needs some "upgrades". Then gets on the internet to complain about it.

-----

That's one of the things I like most about this sight. S&W revolver shooters tend to recognize the value in leaving well enough alone, and if they make changes, they are truly practical changes driven by actual shooting requirements.

Don't get me wrong - I probably own more AR-15s and other evil black rifles than most, but if I want to play with Legos, I buy *actual* Legos.
 
Per Black Hills Ammunition, if measured the same way with the same gauges, 5.56 x 45 mm has a higher(60,000 psi) MAP than .223. If you measure the 5.56 mm in the CIP method, it's still higher than .223, but not 60,000 psi.

On the mess with things and accessorize them to death thing and never read the manual-totally agree. Bought my first .223 rifle 42 rounds used for less than half RSRP. The original owner never figured out what the funny knobs on the rear sight were for and blamed the product:)))
 
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I'm not sure when this rumor is ever going to die. ........

.223/5.56 Brass thickness and case volume
......
Unlike .308 Win and 7.62mm NATO, there isn't any difference between .223 Rem and 5.56mm NATO cases. With the possible exception of some reportedly out of spec .223/5.56mm cases made in eastern Europe there is no significant difference between .223 Remington and 5.56mm military cases.

The other widespread rumor that abounds is that 5.56mm NATO ammo has a higher maximum average pressure standard than .223 Remington ammo. That isn't the case - The NATO and SAAMI standards are identical at 55,000 psi. The CIP standard adds some confusion as it is listed as 62,000 psi but it's actually the same pressure, just measured by a different method.

What does matter...

The longer throated 5.56mm NATO chamber does make a difference when 5.56mm NATO ammo is loaded to the 55,000 psi maximum average pressure spec in a 5.56mm NATO chamber.

If you shoot that ammo in the shorter throated .223 Remington chamber, you may encounter higher pressures.

Dangerously, higher pressures? Probably not. Most firearms are proofed to 125% of the maximum average pressure, so while you may accelerate wear you probably won't blow anything up if you accidentally fire 5.56mm rounds in your .223 rifle. I just wouldn't make a habit of it.

BB 57
Thank you for your informative post.

But I have issue with a couple of your statements

“probably not” dangerously, high pressure??

Proof loads? Probably won’t blow anything up??


Why even take a chance to come close to these limits?

When the military tests their rifles with 1 proof load - they inspect all parts for cracks, seams and other defects by visual and magnetic particle inspection.

I offer a bomb disposal analogy – Is the guy telling you to cut the red wire or the guy telling you to cut the white wire hanging with you? Which one is running?

These “rumors” won’t die until those in authority or in responsible charge (government, SAAMI and bullet/powder/case manufacturers, etc. acknowledge and definitively address all of the issues.

Gun mag writers can parrot the catch phrases over and over – but they are not an authority.

Ammunition manufactures sell ammo specifically for 556 and warn not to use it in 223. Why?

SAAMI’s Unsafe_Arms_and_Ammunition_Combinations – see page 7 says do not use 5.56mm Military in 223 Remington
http://saami.org/specifications_and...1-Unsafe_Arms_and_Ammunition_Combinations.pdf

To me that “Unsafe combination” applies to 5.56mm factory AMMO that has a warning on the box stating not to use in 223 and reloads using 5.56 load data (not the watered down 556 data that’s stated OKAY in 223 also)

As for cases – sure 5.56 brass is safe for loading 223 ammo. But is 223 brass safe for loading all 5.56 loads?

SAAMI leaves case interior and brass specs up to the manufacturers.




Although the exterior dimensions of 223 and 5.56 cases are identical, the US Army has a specification for its 5.56 case. It specifies a case hardness gradient – see chart in the lower left of the drawing and notes 2,3 and 14. Also note the dimensions required for the primer pocket and Web thickness for this mil-spec brass.
For reloading, Harder is stronger, but more brittle and Web thickness affects primer looseness.

So SAAMI and NATO specs are not the same.

Is it probable that all commercial brass manufacture’s meet this NATO spec for commercial 223 sale?

Yes, maybe if they also are manufacturing brass cases for the military. Otherwise?

Brass manufactures use different alloys and different degrees of hardening. Federal tends to be softest, and like Remington uses 80:20 alloy, Winchester and mil-spec uses 70:30. Do they all meet the military spec for a 5.56 case?

Here is an example of 5.56 and 223 data for same bullet, same powder

Western Powders Reloading Load Data Guide Edition 6 (PAGES 28 – 31)

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/WesternLoadGuide1-2016_Web-1.pdf

223 REMINGTON 55000 PSI -- STANDARD SAAMI COMMERCIAL SPECIFICATIONS Barrel: 24” ¦ Twist: 1-12” ¦ Primer: WSR ¦ Bullet Diameter: 0.224” Case: WIN ¦ Max Case Length: 1.760” ¦ Trim Length: 1.750”



ACCURATE 2460 PAGE 29
55 HDY BT-FMJ 22.6 3,029 25.1 3,293 54,550 2.200


5.56 X 45MM NATO CIP COMMERCIAL AND NATO/MIL SPECIFICATION (62,350 PSI) Barrel: 24” ¦ Twist: 1-7” ¦ Primer: WIN WSR ¦ Bullet Diameter: 0.224” Case: WIN ¦ Max Case Length: 1.760” ¦ Trim Length: 1.750”

ACCURATE 2460
55 HDY BT-FMJ 24.0 3,183 26.7 3,464 61,520 2.200 C

Should the 556 load, with 1:7 twist be shot in the 223 with the 1:12 twist?

And should the 556 load be loaded using a 223 case?

FOR COMPARISON
HORNADY HANDBOOK OF CARTRIDGE RELOADING 8TH EDITION PAGE 165
223 REMINGTON BARREL 26” TWIST 1:12 Primer: WIN WSR Bullet Diameter: 0.224” Case: WIN Max Case Length: 1.760” Trim Length: 1.750”


ACCURATE 2460
55 HDY BT-FMJ 21.2 2,800 24.2 3,100 PSI NOT GIVEN 2.20

compare the min to max charge weights

Are 223 cases completely interchangeable?
 
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