Hodgdon Data

All,

Have y'all noticed that Hodgdon's data isn't near max pressure? For the calibers I reload, very rarely do I see "max" loads, in regards to pressure. I will say some are in the ballpark, most are not.

For example, I recently acquired some Longshot, as I heard it was good for the 10mm. For a 200 gr. slug, their listed max pressure is 35,000 psi; .40 S&W level. For another load, .38 +P, the max was 17,000 psi, which is squarely the limit for standard pressure rounds.

I hate to go above published data, but I have a hard time believing the pressures would dramatically spike just going a few tenths over.

What is y'all's experience?

While there are the occasional misprints on load data, there's nothing that says the powder company must publish data for a max pressure load. The next charge increment with that powder may exceed pressure limits. (Bear in mind that powder companies are typically doing load development on universal receivers using barrels produced to dead minimum bore & groove dimensions and minimum chambers to give a worst possible case scenario. Powder company data is frequently light as a result.) Or, the listed load may duplicate factory velocities and they figure that's close enough. The vast majority of factory ammunition is loaded to a velocity spec within SAAMI MAP pressure limits.

Oddly enough, Alliant rifle data is pretty good, but I don't get their their velocities. It does virtually duplicate velocities with factory ammo in the same firearm. Can't say that about any other factory data I've tried. When I was working up a load for my son's SMLE, Hogdon max load for BC-2 clocked about 25% under velocity per Hogdon data. Some other data sources confirmed that Hogdon data, in this case was extremely conservative.

You also have to be careful about throwing pressures around: CUP and piezo electric PSI aren't the same thing and there is no correlation at pistol levels.

I"d suggest trying their loads over a chronograph before deciding about going above & beyond. Check other sources of load data too.

WR Moore said:

While there are the occasional misprints on load data, there's nothing that says the powder company must publish data for a max pressure load. The next charge increment with that powder may exceed pressure limits. (Bear in mind that powder companies are typically doing load development on universal receivers using barrels produced to dead minimum bore & groove dimensions and minimum chambers to give a worst possible case scenario. Powder company data is frequently light as a result.) Or, the listed load may duplicate factory velocities and they figure that's close enough. The vast majority of factory ammunition is loaded to a velocity spec within SAAMI MAP pressure limits.

Oddly enough, Alliant rifle data is pretty good, but I don't get their their velocities. It does virtually duplicate velocities with factory ammo in the same firearm. Can't say that about any other factory data I've tried. When I was working up a load for my son's SMLE, Hogdon max load for BC-2 clocked about 25% under velocity per Hogdon data. Some other data sources confirmed that Hogdon data, in this case was extremely conservative.

You also have to be careful about throwing pressures around: CUP and piezo electric PSI aren't the same thing and there is no correlation at pistol levels.

I"d suggest trying their loads over a chronograph before deciding about going above & beyond. Check other sources of load data too.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the response.

I do use a chronograph. And it is ["real"] psi, not cup (which the units are also psi).

For the 10mm, no factory loads duplicate original specs. You need boutique ammo (BB, Underwood, etc.) to do that. In my experience, the only ones that have done it is AA9 w/ the 180 and 200 and Longshot w/ the 180, both within published data.

One other thing that bugs me is their .38 data uses a 7.7" bbl. Artificial inflation, if you ask me.

Trying to reload off one data source is pretty limiting. I use avg data from three. There is no biblical rule that max data in one source shall not be exceeded. Longshot will safely get you full power 10 ammo; 180 @ 1250fps, 200 @ 1200fps.

I recently started reloading and I bought Hodgdon Clays powder and 125 gr Rainier flat nose plated bullets. The salesman at the gun shop told me Clays would work for 38 spl and he looked up the data in a Lee book. It stated start at 2.5 gr and max is 3.5 gr.
So far I have had two squibs plus one bullet found 10' from where I was shooting and another bullet found laying on ground in front of target 27 ft away.
The Hodgdon data site for 38 spl says 2.5 start and 3.5 max also for 125gr cast LRNFP. Then it also stated125 gr HDY XTP start at 3.5 and max 3.9.
The GS that removed the bullet asked what powder was I using and while I was trying to remember he said it was basically made for shotgun ammo. Then I remembered the name Hodgdon and I told him I was told it would be okay for 38 spl. He sort of shook his head and said he would suggest I quit using it. He said it is to slow burning and data he saw 3.5 was min load. He suggested I use win 231.
I could have missed loading the powder but I really don't think I did. Of course I could have though. I am wondering if the 2.5 is to low of a charge and might have caused the squibs. The first squib was from the first 300 I loaded and the second squib came from second batch run.
I am totally new to this reloading and I am not off to a good start.
The 7.7 barrel was confusing to me also. What gun uses a 7.7" barrel let alone a 38 spl handgun?

gman51 said:

I recently started reloading and I bought Hodgdon Clays powder and 125 gr Rainier flat nose plated bullets. The salesman at the gun shop told me Clays would work for 38 spl and he looked up the data in a Lee book. It stated start at 2.5 gr and max is 3.5 gr.
So far I have had two squibs plus one bullet found 10' from where I was shooting and another bullet found laying on ground in front of target 27 ft away.
The Hodgdon data site for 38 spl says 2.5 start and 3.5 max also for 125gr cast LRNFP. Then it also stated125 gr HDY XTP start at 3.5 and max 3.9.
The GS that removed the bullet asked what powder was I using and while I was trying to remember he said it was basically made for shotgun ammo. Then I remembered the name Hodgdon and I told him I was told it would be okay for 38 spl. He sort of shook his head and said he would suggest I quit using it. He said it is to slow burning and data he saw 3.5 was min load. He suggested I use win 231.
I could have missed loading the powder but I really don't think I did. Of course I could have though. I am wondering if the 2.5 is to low of a charge and might have caused the squibs. The first squib was from the first 300 I loaded and the second squib came from second batch run.
I am totally new to this reloading and I am not off to a good start.
The 7.7 barrel was confusing to me also. What gun uses a 7.7" barrel let alone a 38 spl handgun?

Click to expand...

First, gun shop employees in general know little to nothing about reloading. Second, why are you asking for reloading data, you should have at least two manuals & then cross ref with the powder manuf.
third key point, bullets are not plug & play. Lead bullets are diff than plated ate diff than jacketed. That is why the data is diff. Fourth, never load more than 10rds for testing. When you do a proper lad dev, you start low & work up in 1/10gr increments for powders like Clays.
Hogdon Clays is quite a bit FASTER tha W231. Make damn sure you are using Clays & not Universal Clays, totally diff powders.
Btw, you either know the powder charge or not, there is no i think. Reloading isnt difficult, but does require extreme attention to details like what powder & what charge weight.

gman51 said:

I recently started reloading and I bought Hodgdon Clays powder and 125 gr Rainier flat nose plated bullets. The salesman at the gun shop told me Clays would work for 38 spl and he looked up the data in a Lee book. It stated start at 2.5 gr and max is 3.5 gr.
So far I have had two squibs plus one bullet found 10' from where I was shooting and another bullet found laying on ground in front of target 27 ft away.
The Hodgdon data site for 38 spl says 2.5 start and 3.5 max also for 125gr cast LRNFP. Then it also stated125 gr HDY XTP start at 3.5 and max 3.9.
The GS that removed the bullet asked what powder was I using and while I was trying to remember he said it was basically made for shotgun ammo. Then I remembered the name Hodgdon and I told him I was told it would be okay for 38 spl. He sort of shook his head and said he would suggest I quit using it. He said it is to slow burning and data he saw 3.5 was min load. He suggested I use win 231.
I could have missed loading the powder but I really don't think I did. Of course I could have though. I am wondering if the 2.5 is to low of a charge and might have caused the squibs. The first squib was from the first 300 I loaded and the second squib came from second batch run.
I am totally new to this reloading and I am not off to a good start.
The 7.7 barrel was confusing to me also. What gun uses a 7.7" barrel let alone a 38 spl handgun?

Click to expand...

Clays is not a slow powder, in reality it's very fast. While you can use it in the .38 Special and many do, I don't care for any super fast powders because they can spike pressures at the top end. If you got one squib in 300 rounds I'm guessing it's not the powder and possibly you made a mistake. How are you measuring the powder used in each round? Clays is difficult to meter at such small charge weights. That's another reason I don't like super fast powders, extremely small charges. If you are short on the charge when charging the min it could cause a squib.

W231/HP-38 is an excellent choice for loading the .38 Special. I use almost nothing else in the .38 Spl. and 45 ACP.

Clays is a family of shotgun powders distributed by Hodgdon. Clays, International Clays and Universal Clays the fastest being Clays. Be very careful not to mix them or their data up. You will not like the results.

Where does a ......

franzas said:

Thank you for the response.

I do use a chronograph. And it is ["real"] psi, not cup (which the units are also psi).

For the 10mm, no factory loads duplicate original specs. You need boutique ammo (BB, Underwood, etc.) to do that. In my experience, the only ones that have done it is AA9 w/ the 180 and 200 and Longshot w/ the 180, both within published data.

One other thing that bugs me is their .38 data uses a 7.7" bbl. Artificial inflation, if you ask me.

Click to expand...

Where does a 10" universal receiver line up with anything in the real world, except maybe the TC line?

I feel like I'm really limited...

If I can find a reliable published source that hasn't been discredited (read Speer number Eight), I may not go for the top, but I'll go higher than puny data. Especially with strong modern guns and not cheap or older than the 1960s. Some guns are made for heavy loads. My Sierra book says that I can load my .38 special, 125 grain JHP with 7 grains of Unique. I don't do that, but with my model 10 I knew that it could handle it safely. I do use the data for slightly increased loads above the 6 grain max that is almost universal nowadays. The reason I do this is that the .38 is on the hairy edge of delivering enough velocity for bullets to expand and perform. Speer Gold Dot Bullets do better at lower velocities, but I'd rather be sure.

Before anybody says that 'some people just like big loads' I also shoot tons of light target loads. I want to have and use the whole range of performance available to me.

I have commented in the past....

ArchAngelCD said:

Clays is not a slow powder, in reality it's very fast. While you can use it in the .38 Special and many do, I don't care for any super fast powders because they can spike pressures at the top end. If you got one squib in 300 rounds I'm guessing it's not the powder and possibly you made a mistake. How are you measuring the powder used in each round? Clays is difficult to meter at such small charge weights. That's another reason I don't like super fast powders, extremely small charges. If you are short on the charge when charging the min it could cause a squib.

W231/HP-38 is an excellent choice for loading the .38 Special. I use almost nothing else in the .38 Spl. and 45 ACP.

Clays is a family of shotgun powders distributed by Hodgdon. Clays, International Clays and Universal Clays the fastest being Clays. Be very careful not to mix them or their data up. You will not like the results.

Click to expand...

I've commented before on lack of imagination in product naming by powder companies.

rwsmith said:

I've commented before on lack of imagination in product naming by powder companies.

Click to expand...

I know you have and you are right. Sometimes it's even down right confusing like this example. It seems they are all brains and no common sense. lol

gman51 said:

I recently started reloading and I bought Hodgdon Clays powder and 125 gr Rainier flat nose plated bullets. The salesman at the gun shop told me Clays would work for 38 spl and he looked up the data in a Lee book. It stated start at 2.5 gr and max is 3.5 gr.
So far I have had two squibs plus one bullet found 10' from where I was shooting and another bullet found laying on ground in front of target 27 ft away.
The Hodgdon data site for 38 spl says 2.5 start and 3.5 max also for 125gr cast LRNFP. Then it also stated125 gr HDY XTP start at 3.5 and max 3.9.
The GS that removed the bullet asked what powder was I using and while I was trying to remember he said it was basically made for shotgun ammo. Then I remembered the name Hodgdon and I told him I was told it would be okay for 38 spl. He sort of shook his head and said he would suggest I quit using it. He said it is to slow burning and data he saw 3.5 was min load. He suggested I use win 231.
I could have missed loading the powder but I really don't think I did. Of course I could have though. I am wondering if the 2.5 is to low of a charge and might have caused the squibs. The first squib was from the first 300 I loaded and the second squib came from second batch run.
I am totally new to this reloading and I am not off to a good start.
The 7.7 barrel was confusing to me also. What gun uses a 7.7" barrel let alone a 38 spl handgun?

Click to expand...

Lemme do this in parts.

(1) Never assume a gun store employee knows about reloading. Or guns, for that matter. He's there to sell you stuff.

(2) Many fast-burning pistol powders are also used in shotguns. Some slow-burning pistol powders are used in rifles.

(3) Hodgdon Clays is actually quite excellent for light loads of .38 and some .45. It's a very fast-burning powder. Fast-burning powders produce low velocities.

(4) Lighter bullets usually use more powder than heavier bullets.

(4) Never assume a gunsmith knows about reloading.

(5) A 7.7" test barrel for load data is...well, sort of irrelevant. Listed velocities are always a very rough approximation. If real-world velocity is important to you (and if you're just punching paper, it probably isn't), you have to chrono.

Now then. I would say that it is almost certain that you dropped a light charge. Clays, being a very fast powder, is quite difficult to squib. A squib happens when the charge doesn't reach the pressures necessary to burn properly, usually because the charge was light. In a light charge, instead of getting 2.5-gr, it's not uncommon to dispense something like .3 or .8 grains.

Always remember--whenever you use a new powder, or a lighter charge of a powder you've used before, weigh at least the first 50, preferably at least 100, before you revert to normal checking practices. Better is to do 6-Sigma analysis, but that's math.

And whenever you load, always weigh at least the first 10 cartridges, and then every 5th/10th/whatever afterwards. I usually start off by dropping ten charges that I dump back into the hopper, to let the powder settle.

Check out Reloading For Handgunners to get a more solid foundation on reloading. And pick up the Lee (or any other) loading manual, they've got good information on reloading practices as well.

ArchAngelCD said:

Clays is difficult to meter at such small charge weights. That's another reason I don't like super fast powders, extremely small charges. If you are short on the charge when charging the min it could cause a squib.

Click to expand...

I don't know about Clays (still can't get it), but many super-fast powders measure beautifully at low charge weights. Both Bullseye and WST dispense safely and consistently at .3cc charges. For Bullseye, that's 2.8-gr (great for 158-gr LSWCs), and for WST, 2.5-gr (perfect for 148-gr DEWCs).

I produce both loads in volume, with confidence.

I find that the shape and characteristics of the powder are more import. BE and WST are very fine-grained. 700-X, by contrast, was larger flakes with curled edges that almost interlock. It's known to be prone to bridging.

I used Clays in my cast bullet target loads for .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP and .44 Magnum for years with nary a squib or other problem so I agree with the above poster's opinion that you had an inaccurate powder drop.

Ed

fredj338 said:

Trying to reload off one data source is pretty limiting. I use avg data from three. There is no biblical rule that max data in one source shall not be exceeded. Longshot will safely get you full power 10 ammo; 180 @ 1250fps, 200 @ 1200fps.

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In order to get the 200 w/ LS to 1200, I'll need to be .4ish grains above max. But, like I stated previously, their max is SAAMI for .40. I'm heading out to chrono some stuff this weekend, so I'll test a few different charges.

I do cross-reference. It's just convenient to use their online data for quick references.

With the exception of when I start using a brand of rifle bullet both new to me and the industry, I relay upon the powder manufacturers' website data. One of those exceptions was Berger bullets; when they expanded beyond strictly benchrest bullets, no powder company had developed hunting data with them so I bought Berger's book when it was released because their bullets are shaped differently than most others. But website data can be updated any time, not just every so often when it is felt a book reprint is deserved.

Also don't overlook the fact that the people compiling that data do not include every possible recipe as some just don't work out well. It's almost as important to know which ones don't work as it is to know which ones do work so when I see something that appears to be missing, I call that source and ask. I often learn that a given combination didn't work but most importantly why it didn't work.

I've also learned about combinations that do work but weren't thought to be popular enough to include in a data chart. When I briefly switched from Remington STS/Nitro 27 shells and reloading components to Federal Gold Medal shells and wads, I disliked the wads and thought their stiffness added to the shells' felt recoil. As I always preferred eight-petal wads and used a lot of Windjammers in my Remington hulls, the Claybuster CB-1100 Lightning wad looked like a good substitute as although it is intended to be a one-ounce wad for straight-wall hulls, its shot cup was the same depth as wads intended for 1-1/8 ounce so I called Claybuster.

When I told the person with whom I spoke why I was calling, he transferred me to the owner of Claybuster, Bill-something as I recall (it's been many years). He told me I had stumbled upon his favorite recipe, a Federal hull and the CB-1100 wad. However his people told him that it would not be a popular choice so that wad was not included in Claybuster's load data for 1-1/8 ounce loads in Federal hulls. So there times that very good combinations that don't see print.

I eventually returned to Remington shells but a phone call costs little more than some time and occasionally is quite worthwhile.

Ed

About barrel length-whoever creates a cartridge and gives the specs to SAAMI gets to specify barrel length for official calibration purposes. This resulted in much factory ammo loaded for barrels that never existed in the real world.

Back in the day, this didn't matter much. Chronographs were very scarce and rarely seen outside the military ordnance facilities and ammo factories. When they became more widely available, there was much hue and cry about the actual velocities. This lead to changes in how many factories measured velocities and the vented test barrel to duplicate the lost gases from the barrel/cylinder gap.

Now then, about the velocities of "real 10 mm". Norma loaded the first lot of the ammo using a 170 gr JHP at impressive velocities (and presumably pressures). When the cartridge became a standard loading, velocities and pressures were reduced because of broken guns in development. BTW, there's the absolute maximum allowable pressure but by SAMMI standards, ammunition is loaded to a lower, Maximum Average Pressure to allow a safety cushion. (Both for ammo manufacturing variations and firearm and environmental variations.) You don't drive your car at redline every day because it adversely affects service life.

I was issued a 10mm in 1992 and we discontinued the use in 2006. We had custom loaded ammo for many years. 180 gr Hornaday XTP at (IIRC) 1250 f/s +/- 50 f/s. We had no issues with this load. If there was a concrete wall available, it also gave us an indirect fire weapon from bullet shrapnel and spall from the wall.

I'm doubtful that 200 @ 1200 is a good idea. It certainly isn't necessary.

Wise_A said:

I don't know about Clays (still can't get it), but many super-fast powders measure beautifully at low charge weights. Both Bullseye and WST dispense safely and consistently at .3cc charges. For Bullseye, that's 2.8-gr (great for 158-gr LSWCs), and for WST, 2.5-gr (perfect for 148-gr DEWCs).

I produce both loads in volume, with confidence.

I find that the shape and characteristics of the powder are more import. BE and WST are very fine-grained. 700-X, by contrast, was larger flakes with curled edges that almost interlock. It's known to be prone to bridging.

Click to expand...

And that is probably why Clays bridges, lol!

Here's HP-38 compared to Bullseye, which is known to meter well at small charge weights, and is familiar to many reloaders:

franzas said:

Thank you for the response.
...
For the 10mm, no factory loads duplicate original specs. You need boutique ammo (BB, Underwood, etc.) to do that.
..

Click to expand...

Well...I don't know about that. Federal gets their 180g. Bonded Trophy to about 1310FPS-MV out of my 4.6" barrel.

Now then, about the velocities of "real 10 mm". Norma loaded the first lot of the ammo using a 170 gr JHP at impressive velocities (and presumably pressures).

Click to expand...

Actually, this statement is factually false. The original Norma loading was a 200 grain FMJTC bullet at 1,200 fps muzzle velocity. This was the bullet that Jeff Cooper wanted. The 170 grain JHP came later. Regarding what real 10mm ammo is-it would be ammo loaded to the ballistics of the original Norma offerings as specified by Mike Dixon. The operative term here is "as specified". What SAAMI did after the fact is emasculate the round and it had nothing to do with "broken guns in development", whatever those guns might have been(?). To do so would have essentially been a case of the tail wagging the dog. Also, "what is needed" has nothing to do with anything. If the ammunition isn't loaded to the ballistics specified by Mike Dixon and loaded by Norma, it isn't "real" 10mm ammunition. Just because it's loaded in a 10mm case and can be fired in a 10mm firearm, those facts don't make it 10mm ammo. This is, of course, within the realm of 200, 180 and 170 grain bullets.

Bruce

First let me clear up the GS was a gunsmith that owned the business. Second I did more than check one powder data reference. Third I thought a gunsmith would know a lot more than a beginner loader like myself. The gunsmith has been reloading and in the gunsmithing business for ages and he is 57 years old so it isn't like he is new to guns or loading. But I found out he wasn't quite up on Clays powder.
I called Hodgdon and talked to one of their reps and I feel he nailed the problem. I thought he was very respectful to a beginner at loading. He didn't talk like a know it or that I should have known what was obvious to him.
First he said the gunsmith didn't know squat about Clays because Clays is one of the faster powders on the market.
He asked what picture was on the powder bottle and he then knew exactly what I had. No it isn't universal. He asked what bullets I was using and the caliber. He asked was I crimping the bullets and I said no because Rainier says not to crimp their plated bullets. He said he was pretty sure that was the problem for my squibs. He said when the powder first ignites it pushes the uncrimped bullet forward opening up the space in the shell which drops the pressure greatly that the bullet barely passes out of the barrel. He said using a 2.5gr charge is so minimal that the above can create the squibs I had.
He suggested I check and reseat the bullets then either set up the Lee bullet seat die to do a crimp or use a crimp die. He thought that could very well take care of my squib problems.
I told him I could hit the bullet end on a table and the OAL was not changing. He said that doesn't matter and it still needs a crimp of some sort.
I remember when loading that some bullets went into the casing easier than others so I did have somewhat of an ah hah moment due to what he said.
So I checked the OAL of each loaded round and if it need it I seated the bullet again. Then after installing the Lee crimp die according to Lee's directions I also crimped the round. Then I again check the OAL for being in specs. I did this with 5 rounds and shot the 5.
I noticed a greatly improved accuracy and consistent sound. I also opened the cylinder just to check for a clear barrel. I think and hope this solves my problem.
Some need to remember they were at once upon a time new at reloading and were also on the bottom of the knowledge scale. Like the Clays rep said, beginning loaders get advice from many that really don't know enough to be talking smack. I found even a person that has been loading for 30 years and is a gunsmith can be misinformed.
I appreciate help from you all that's for sure because I sure was at a loss as to the cause. I will shoot some more rounds and I feel somewhat confident the Clay's rep nailed it. I hope he did.
If I get a squib or any problem I will immediately inspect that casing to determine possible cause. If there was no powder in it then the casing should look much cleaner. I still feel pretty sure I didn't skip the powder step.
I will update as the results come in. Thanks again.