Model of 1891 first model single shot, real or fake?

Göring's S&W

Göring's S&W

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So on Saturday, I saw a friend of mine was selling a first model of 1891 single shot at a gun show. I got all excited because of the rarity. It was a 22, but still rare. So I bought it. Its a 6 in and nickel. Stock is gorgeous, finish has only about 50% left.

Well today, I was going to post it on here to share with you all when I became concerned. The gun has 4 characteristics which have me concerned about its authenticity:

1) The SN is not on the front strap. Every reference I had including pics of other 1891 single shot 1st models have the SN on the front strap. On my gun, it is on the bottom of the butt, like any other S&W revolver.

2) The grips are not SN'd at all. Almost as if they were ordered as factory extras....

3) The barrel is not numbered in the usual spot. Its not numbered at all. Could it be a later add on?

4) The latch is not numbered, at all. Added on?

The SN is 10XXX. I suppose the saying "never say never with S&W" holds some merit here but I really suspect this to be be a 3rd model 38 SA with a later S&W 22 LR SS barrel. What say you guys? Is the SN early enough for this to be a rare early variation?

SW1891singleshot4.jpg

SW1891singleshot6.jpg

SW1891singleshot3.jpg
 
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I think you are correct in believing this is NOT an original First Model Single Shot, for all the reasons you mentioned with the serial numbers missing form the barrel and on the butt and not the front grip strap.

In the Neal and Jinks book, they mention, and I quote:

"Although a total of 3, 198 single shot barrels were made, only 1,251 were originally made up as single shots. The remaining 1,947 were sold either by supplying single shot barrels for 38 Single Action Third Models on request of prior purchase, or by supplying extra single shot barrels in different calibers for people already owning single shots, or by finishing up complete guns from frams and barrels left in stock. Of the 1,251 originally made, 862 were 22 caliber, 229 were 32 caliber and 160 were 38 caliber."

Even though it's probably not an original single shot, I bet it would still be fun to shoot and accurate too.
 
I dug out my letter because of some discrepancies with my first model. Somewhere down the line I think the latch was replaced on mine. According to my letter the SN is located on the forestrap of the grip. I also have the original black checkered grips which are in excellent condition and there is no number on them. I have fired it with subsonic .22 ammo but the mainspring is worn out and it had a hard time with light hammer strikes on the modern ammo. Regards, Chef
 
Is the gun an antique?

I would think so myself because even if was a real single shot, 10XXX is relatively early. The 1891 revolver debuted in 1891 while the single shot debuted in 1893, IIRC. So its probably an antique, right?

The other thing that I guess proves its a 1891 revolver aka 3rd model 38 SA, is that the mechanism does in fact have a hand to rotate a cylinder. If the gun was originally made as a single shot, it would not have a hand? (I read that in my Neal and Jinks book last night).

Moral of the story - always check barrel and latch SNs. I did not, assuming that the owner did and he did not. We talked about it and I'm getting a free 38 SA 2nd model which is nice of him.
 
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I was under the impression that because the 1st Model Single Shots shared the same frame with the 3rd Model .38 Single Action, they all had the hand to rotate the cylinder. Anyone else care to chime in?
 
I was under the impression that because the 1st Model Single Shots shared the same frame with the 3rd Model .38 Single Action, they all had the hand to rotate the cylinder. Anyone else care to chime in?
Click to expand...

Well even so, if the SN is on the butt, its probably not correct? Or is there a chance its right?
 
Well even so, if the SN is on the butt, its probably not correct?
Click to expand...
\

Probably not.

Or is there a chance its right?
Click to expand...

Never say never with S&W. But the chances are slim to none..

The serial number is not on the list in Jinks & Neal. In fact there are no numbers in the 10,xxx series shown as being assigned to the Single Shots, but the list is acknowledged as not being complete. A $50 factory letter probably will show that the gun left the factory as a revolver, but then again.......;) (Or it will show as "open" and you will be no better off in your question.:D)

The serial placement and the lack of numbers on the barrel and latch pretty much point to an after market assembly.

In any case I would still consider it as collectible as the assembly was probably done a long time ago. (Just not quite as good as an original.)
 
I know of only one other 1891 Single Shot in 22 LR, in the 10,000 range, # 10,019, it has a 10 inch barrel and is Blue.
H. M. Pope
 
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1891

Gorings S&W
The wear looks the same on your barrel and frame. Somewhere out there is a revolver barrel and cylinder with your frame number on it. Since the serial number is located on the butt, showing in may have been an 1891 Revolver with standard grip, then the barrel should have std. sights on it also. If it were a part of a combo set, it should have all been numbered the same. The earliest set shown in the book is serial number 1489 in .22, 6035 in .32, and 2776 in .38.

The target grips, from what I have seen, have no numbers on most.
The barrel most likely was added years ago, ordered as an after thought and would have no numbers on it or the latch.

H.M.Pope

There was a 10,382 sold at auction recently and it was a blued 10 inch with G.B.N engraved on the left side. Also RIA sold a 99% nickel 10 inch with the early 10,190 serial number that was listed in the book of incomplete numbers.

Both of these guns had the S&W Trademark on the right of frame. There is one other noted that way in the 8,500 range. The remainder of the trade marked guns start around 15,200.
 
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Here's some numbers and the dates shipped that I had years ago.
# 14478 Shipped, 12-1894.
# 16274 Shipped, 6-1896.
# 17877 Shipped, 6-1897.

I think it would be safe to say that a First Model SS with a serial number in the 10500 range would have been made before 1898 and fall into the antique range.
H. M. Pope
 
My Model of 91 First Model, Serial Number 134XX shipped on March 21, 1893 according to my factory letter. Hope this helps. Regards, Chef
 
deadin said:
That serial, chronologically, falls right about at the breaking point between antique and not antique, so only a factory letter will tell.
Click to expand...

I have been told that the frames for the 1st Model Single Shot and the 3rd Model .38 SA, were all made pre-1898. All 28,128 that were used for these two configurations. Maybe someone in the know can help us here.

Serial numbers of other 1st Model Single Shots and shipping dates:
15417 5-25-1894
15635 11-15-1895
15878 2-20-1896
19075 2-4-1901
21667 5-28-1904

I still think all 1st models are antiques! or are they?

Terry
 
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Some seem to think that the born on date is when the frame has a serial number, is assembled, test fired, and ready to be sold. Others seem to think that the gun is not born till it is sold and shipped. I don't think we can have it both ways just to please us. I think ATF says that anything "made" before 1898 is an antique and has nothing to do when it is shipped. That could be a good thing for us even if some don't agree with it. I know that a lot of First Model 1891 were shipped long after 1898.


Can anyone tell me why some use those X's, instead of the full serial number.
I know a lot of guys do that but don't know why.
H. M. Pope
 
I know that the books say that all .44 DA Top-Break frames were made pre 1899 even though they were cataloged up to 1913 and all are considered as antique.
I haven't heard that the .38 SA 3rd was the same, but it wouldn't surprise me, especially after seeing some of the serials posted here that shipped in the 1890's.

As for "having it both ways". S&W did not or does not have records of when a piece was actually "made" so the accepted way (including the ATF) of dating a Smith has been by the shipping date. (For which records do exist.)
Apparently in some cases (The .44 DA) some kind of records exist that show all actually made prior to 1899.
 
Like most things there are exceptions, I still go with the idea that when the frame has a serial number, is assembled, it's test fired, put in a box, and is ready to be sold it is born and "alive" and is a real firearm no matter when it is sold, It's my opinion that some First Model 1891's were made and sold after 1898.

Many times the gun is sold years after it is made, some just don't sell as fast as others, I know the accepted way of dating a S&W has been by the shipping date but does that mean it is correct for all S&W's, I think not.

One good example is a bunch of "new" never sold before S&W M-1940 Light Rifles I had bought in the 1970's, just because they were sold in the 1970's and may letter as being shipped in the 1970's most know that they were not made in the 1970's.

This is not just with S&W's, it happens with most large Manufacturers, very few if any make guns in numerical order and sell them in numerical order in the year they were made.
H. M. Pope
 
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Model of 91's as Shipped

Hello to all,

Bringing up this old thread due to new information on this subject.

Did the factory ever stamp a serial number on the butt of a Single Shot and ship it that way?
YES... Serial number 13934 is a First Model Single Shot with a six inch barrel and letters as being shipped that way on 12-3-1892. The serial number is located on the butt, under the target grips. All numbers match.

Did the factory ever ship a Single Shot without a number on the barrel?
YES... Serial number 19988 is a First Model Single Shot Blued, 10 inch barrel .38 S&W , Letters as being shipped on 11-23-1901 as a blued, 10 inch barrel .38 S&W caliber. All the other numbers match but missing the barrel number.

I have noticed a great number after serial number 21,000 that do not have barrel numbers and do not always have a matching latch numbers.
An even greater number of Target Extended Grips were not marked with the serial number.

It has been said before, never say never!!

Terry Wagner
 
The Pre-1899 Antique Guns FAQ, published by James Wesley, which is the best source for antique serial number ranges, classifies both the S&W 32 & 38 Single Action revolvers as antiques.

All S&W Model 1891, all are pre-1899
All S&W Single Action (SA) .32 and .38 top break revolvers, all are pre-1899
 
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