Serial number dates gun to 1866. Engraved with mother of pearl grips (some chipping on both sides) Nickel plated and engraved. Cylinder spring needs adjusting; cylinder rotates but does not lock up. Also have letter from Robert Neal (1977) providing provenance for gun; likely factory engraved, possibly Nimschke but not confirmed. Selling price?
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SW Model 1 3rd issue value
- Thread starter rmoon
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Hello and welcome to the Forum, need lots of pics and copy of letter for even a ballpark evaluation.
Welcome from Pennsylvania, rmoon!
Posting pictures isn't very hard after you do it a few times.
A key is to know how to find them on your computer / device.
Try this: Instead of typing your message in the QUICK REPLY box, hit the GO ADVANCED button underneath it. This will take you to another page with more icons at the top of the reply box. Find the 'paperclip', and click on it. This will open a box called 'Manage Attachments'. Click 'Choose File' there and locate it on your device, click 'Choose File', then download it.
Now, back to your reply box where you are creating the message. Click on the paperclip again, and a small box with that file number should appear. Click on that, and it should attach the picture. You should be somewhat good to go.
I am sure I missed a step somewhere, so anyone wishing to add to this feel free.
I'll test it here:
Posting pictures isn't very hard after you do it a few times.
A key is to know how to find them on your computer / device.
Try this: Instead of typing your message in the QUICK REPLY box, hit the GO ADVANCED button underneath it. This will take you to another page with more icons at the top of the reply box. Find the 'paperclip', and click on it. This will open a box called 'Manage Attachments'. Click 'Choose File' there and locate it on your device, click 'Choose File', then download it.
Now, back to your reply box where you are creating the message. Click on the paperclip again, and a small box with that file number should appear. Click on that, and it should attach the picture. You should be somewhat good to go.
I am sure I missed a step somewhere, so anyone wishing to add to this feel free.
I'll test it here:
Attachments
Welcome to the Forum. I don't believe that any of my guesses on engraving have ever been correct so I will not venture a guess on that one. The Forum, however, has several true engraving experts and they will hopefully reply soon as to the authenticity of the engraving and a guess as to who did it. Continue to provide pictures of the gun and some close-ups of the engraving.
Great to have a letter from Robert Neal and to be honest, price range of $250 - $1000 for this little tip-up are still pretty much valid forty years later. Good quality non-engraved examples are selling for $250 - $350 today.
There seem to be quite a few post-factory engraved Model 1-3 revolvers out there, most due to the S&W distributors having access to their own engravers to handle special orders. Those guns seem to sell for $500 +/-, but Young and Nimschke guns will provide a considerable value adder. Hope our experts show up soon to comment.
There were over 131,000 of this model made and yours looks to be a "pinto" or two-tone original silver plate/blue gun. These were done at the factory with special orders and that could add to the possibility it left the factory engraved. Good luck.
Great to have a letter from Robert Neal and to be honest, price range of $250 - $1000 for this little tip-up are still pretty much valid forty years later. Good quality non-engraved examples are selling for $250 - $350 today.
There seem to be quite a few post-factory engraved Model 1-3 revolvers out there, most due to the S&W distributors having access to their own engravers to handle special orders. Those guns seem to sell for $500 +/-, but Young and Nimschke guns will provide a considerable value adder. Hope our experts show up soon to comment.
There were over 131,000 of this model made and yours looks to be a "pinto" or two-tone original silver plate/blue gun. These were done at the factory with special orders and that could add to the possibility it left the factory engraved. Good luck.
The cylinder does not appear to have ever been plated; is this what one forum member called a "pinto gun"? Hopefully I've provided enough info for some of you to help me pin a value to this gun. I appreciate the help with instructions on loading pics of the gun and Bob Neal's letter; if anyone needs additional close ups of the engraving to help determine who might have done it and where I'll post whatever you need.
Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! I, also, am no expert on engraving. But, I did want to point out that you can attach up to 5 pictures per post. Just Browse, Select and Upload then repeat for the pictures you want to attach. Hopefully, someone that can help will be along soon.
opoefc
US Veteran
At the time this gun was made by S&W, there were no "factory engravers" employed by the factory. S&W relied on their distributors to supply customers with any requests for an engraved S&W, therefore distributors , like J.W.Storrs, etc., contracted with various engravers for their work engraving guns for customers. The posters gun is nicely engraved and well done by someone skilled in engraving. Who that was is probably a guess, at the best. I see evidence that the style is in the work of Nimschke's shop, but not by the master himself, in my opinion. The pulls of Nimschke's work on S&W Model 1s are much more elaborate and delicate, with overlapping scrolls, and background shading, etc. Many different engravers in NYC at the time could have done the work. Having said that, don't forget this gun is an aftermarket refinished gun, as necessary for any gun engraved after it left S&W. The poster hasn't told us if the assembly codes are matching on all parts, but I'm assuming that probably are and that the gun left S&W as a plain nickel plated gun, not as a "Pinto" which was created after the engraving by blueing the cylinder. I would agree with the estimated of current value. Ed.
Thanks to all once again with my Model 1 advice
This forum has been a tremendous help, and I've discovered a lot about the gun I did not know and I don't think I will learn much more w/out a hands on appraisal and disassembly. I did pull the grips; there are no markings on the inside at all. I lightly cleaned some old grease and dirt off the cylinder; there is a ID of "T-55"on the forward face of the cylinder. Also found that after a light cleaning and lube the cylinder locks up much more frequently than before, perhaps a cleaning and adjustment is all that is required. So I likely have a contractor engraved gun, perhaps by a Nimschke understudy. If not a pinto gun I still wonder why the cylinder was not plated; I can't find any trace of plating and I don't believe it could have all worn completely off. Beautiful grips but some damage on both sides. Serial # 87851. Only question I have left is what a fair selling price would be. A $300-$1000 estimate is pretty broad. It's listed on my NY permit so I'm not in a particular hurry, but I'm downsizing and there's no point in keeping it.
This forum has been a tremendous help, and I've discovered a lot about the gun I did not know and I don't think I will learn much more w/out a hands on appraisal and disassembly. I did pull the grips; there are no markings on the inside at all. I lightly cleaned some old grease and dirt off the cylinder; there is a ID of "T-55"on the forward face of the cylinder. Also found that after a light cleaning and lube the cylinder locks up much more frequently than before, perhaps a cleaning and adjustment is all that is required. So I likely have a contractor engraved gun, perhaps by a Nimschke understudy. If not a pinto gun I still wonder why the cylinder was not plated; I can't find any trace of plating and I don't believe it could have all worn completely off. Beautiful grips but some damage on both sides. Serial # 87851. Only question I have left is what a fair selling price would be. A $300-$1000 estimate is pretty broad. It's listed on my NY permit so I'm not in a particular hurry, but I'm downsizing and there's no point in keeping it.
opoefc
US Veteran
The pearl grips are after market as supplied by the dealer, which is why they have no markings, such as the serial number or assembly code marking, if they were originally fitted to the gun by S&W. The T 55 stamp is the S&W assembly code and should also be found on the grip frame and on the back of the barrel, if all the parts are original to the gun ( It could be the cylinder, because it's a blue cylinder, is not original to the gun and it's T 55 stamp will not be found elsewhere in the gun's barrel & frame) . The gun is a novelty and has appeal to collectors, as it's a good example of how one acquired an engraved Model 1, 3rd issue, in it's day. I think it would easily bring $700+ in a good auction. Ed.
More info and questions
Thanks to several posters' advice I re-examined the gun. The T-55 # on the cylinder does match the number on the barrel assembly. Can I then assume this was a factory gun with a blued cylinder and nickel plated frame? Would that mean it was factory engraved? How does this information affect potential value?
Thanks to several posters' advice I re-examined the gun. The T-55 # on the cylinder does match the number on the barrel assembly. Can I then assume this was a factory gun with a blued cylinder and nickel plated frame? Would that mean it was factory engraved? How does this information affect potential value?
Information has already been stated that factory engraving was not done in the time period.All of the embellishments were done after it was shipped out. Not having it in my hand, not an expert at all, but the blue on the cylinder looks too good in the photo.It is what it is,we can't coax it into being what you'd like it to be.
A neat little gun,but bear in mind that when someone,such as the letter writer, uses words such as "likely"and "possibly",it sounds nice,but ain't saying much.
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Thanks for the quick response. I don't put any faith in "likely" either but it does seem that this is a factory issued gun with a factory blued cylinder that was well engraved after it left the factory. I've had the gun for almost 50 years, passed down from my great grandmother to my grandmother(who both lived in NYC). From the first time I saw the gun as a child it did not have any plating on the cylinder, nor was it ever out of the family's possession so I don't believe it's been doctored in any way. I just want to be sure that I ask and a buyer pays a fair price. I do not wish to misrepresent it. but I certainly do not want to sell it for less than it is worth. Given the previous posters' advice I'm just curious if a factory gun like this is any more or less valuable than what I thought was a dealer modified piece.
One more mention of a comment from Ed.. The gun absolutely-positively did NOT leave the factory with the finish you see today. When engravers do their work, ALL guns are either stripped of finish before or after the engraver does their work. You cannot engrave without removing the finish, You may never be able to find out if the gun left the factory with a two-tone finish, but a factory letter might help you. The records of guns manufactured 150 years ago are not complete, but if this one was properly logged it will give the configuration as it left the factory.
Was the engraving done while the revolver was new, a 150 years ago, most likely. All engraved Model 1 revolvers were done outside the factory as Ed stated, so value is not affected one way or the other. I still see sales of this style revolver bringing around $500, so would now say that fair market value is between $500 and $800. If a factory letter states two-tone finish, you may get the $800. Can anyone be absolutely certain the finish has not been redone a hundred years ago, no, but with the sharpness of the engraving it seems that is unlikely. It may just be a sleeper gun that has been stored away and not used over its entire lifetime.
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I'm researching a very similar Model 1, 3rd Issue engraved gun that came into my possession a few months back. Like this nickel plated gun, mine has a cylinder that was either blued, or very worn.
The gun would really need to go under a good scope to look at the quality of the engraving. My engraving is variable; some of it looks really masterful (Nimschke - esque), while other parts aren't quite as steady. It still shows nicely, but making a positive attribution to any of the engraving masters becomes a lot more challenging. And, of course, the only provenance I have about my gun is that it was shipped through Storrs. I suspect your gun will tell much the same story.
Fair price? I'll go a hair more specific than the entirely fair estimates cited above and guess $400 on the lower end, and $750 on the higher end. That's still quite a spread, but it represents what I'd probably offer for the gun depending on a number of factors that could only be ascertained with the gun in hand.
(I'm a fairly serious Model 1 collector, so if you find yourself interested in parting with this piece, I'd be happy to talk more about it.)
Mike
The gun would really need to go under a good scope to look at the quality of the engraving. My engraving is variable; some of it looks really masterful (Nimschke - esque), while other parts aren't quite as steady. It still shows nicely, but making a positive attribution to any of the engraving masters becomes a lot more challenging. And, of course, the only provenance I have about my gun is that it was shipped through Storrs. I suspect your gun will tell much the same story.
Fair price? I'll go a hair more specific than the entirely fair estimates cited above and guess $400 on the lower end, and $750 on the higher end. That's still quite a spread, but it represents what I'd probably offer for the gun depending on a number of factors that could only be ascertained with the gun in hand.
(I'm a fairly serious Model 1 collector, so if you find yourself interested in parting with this piece, I'd be happy to talk more about it.)
Mike
