Real or bootleg copy of S&W Old Army #2?

moosedog · Oct 3, 2023

Picked this up recently. Appears to be a Model 2 serial number 3042 but exhibits some peculiar things like no stamping on the top rib of the barrel and grips are different. It has two stampings on the barrel side that appears to be maybe a British Crown and another small stamping. The bore is good, hinge has no cracks, and someone striped the finish or patina.
Let's dissect this thing. All comments are welcome.

moosedog · Oct 3, 2023

More pictures

Club Gun Fan · Oct 3, 2023

I cast one vote for FAKE.

mrcvs · Oct 3, 2023

Club Gun Fan said:
I cast one vote for FAKE.

I cast a second vote for fake.

gmborkovic · Oct 3, 2023

Mr. Moose, can you post a few pics with the grips off?

mmaher94087 · Oct 3, 2023

It appears to be a British copy. In Parson's book, Smith & Wesson Revolvers (P. 63) there is a passage relating to these copies. To paraphrase: ... Smith & Wesson found their pistols being copied abroad where they had no patents in the 1860's. It goes on to state that the pistols are "made in England". S&W responded by enabling the seizure of the copies under a Hong Kong ordnance.

The copy I have also uses the serial number as the assembly numbers. The copy is exact enough that the major parts interchange with a legitomate S&W.

AJ · Oct 3, 2023

My vote is for a fake also.......

moosedog · Oct 3, 2023

Here's a picture of the frame with the grips off. I agree, British made copy, well executed.
Thank you for the info Mike. Just looked it up in my copy.

mmaher94087 · Oct 3, 2023

I mentioned Hong Kong because an HK customer complained about them. Japan also bought Smith & Wesson as well as the copies. My copy #2654 went to the Hiroshima Prefecture and is so marked. An interesting read is a soft cover by Allen "The Japanese Chose Smith & Wesson" and published by The Bonsai Press. I can look up the particulars as I have several copies.

BMur · Oct 3, 2023

Later proofs

The Birmingham proofs date to the early to mid 1870’s. I think Webley and Tranter made copies of the #2 Army. Early British Bulldogs had the same exact proofs that dated to 1874-1879.
I don’t think these would be a patent infringement since the patent likely expired by then.

Earlier infringements would have earlier P & V proofs. These were made for many years since even later proofs are seen on these copies.

Murph

gmborkovic · Oct 4, 2023

Mr. Moose, still a neat old antique, even if it is not a S&W. It served someone well plus it survived.

mmaher94087 · Oct 4, 2023

Moosedog, I keep looking at the markings inside the stocks, especially the right panel. Could they be Japanese or Chinese characters? I couldn't decipher the 'scratches' on my revolver, so I stopped by a Japanese sword collector at a local gun show and got a translation. That led me to the Japanese Arms collector's and the Bonsai press publication(s).

moosedog · Oct 5, 2023

That is interesting. The scratches do appear to be intentional.

red9 · Oct 5, 2023

"Brevette," even if intended for licensed copies, sounds so much better than fake.

Bob

Raide Brest · Oct 5, 2023

Mr Moose, I find these "scratches" intriguing too and if you tilt the pics 90° counterwise, IMHO it can be read VII just like "seven" in Roman numerals and could be some sort of assembly number... Anyhow, it's a pretty nice and original piece!!

gunbarrel · Oct 5, 2023

red9 said:
"Brevette," even if intended for licensed copies, sounds so much better than fake.

Bob

I have to agree with you, Bob (and your definition of Brevette). IMHO, a fake is made with the intent of deceiving.

If it had non-original S&W markings stamped by the British maker, I would consider it a fake. IMHO this a period copy.

BTW, this my S&W Model No. 2 Army, S/N 3XXX

mojave30cal · Oct 5, 2023

My vote is made in China.

mmaher94087 · Oct 5, 2023

I have never seen a Chineseium copy of a Smith & Wesson from that time period. The British proofs and overall appearance are enough to allow me to believe it is an English copy.

For grins and giggles, I'll look up the marks (scratches) when I get a little time in Allen's reference and see if there is more information.

Masterpiece · Oct 6, 2023

mmaher94087 said:
For grins and giggles, I'll look up the marks (scratches) when I get a little time in Allen's reference and see if there is more information.

Hi Mike,

You needn't bother...Already looked & I can't find anything remotely close resembling those markings...Just thought I'd save you the trouble!!

Truthfully...As Raide Brest noted earlier...They look much closer to Roman Numerals than something Japanese!!

batt · Oct 6, 2023

Some suspiscious samey scratches here, on a belgian gun:

belge

Real or bootleg copy of S&W Old Army #2?

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