I am trying to work a deal on a pre war .44 that had had the barrel chopped down to 3 inch and the front sight has been poorly reattached but it is wearing a decent set of pre war Magnas.

Someone at some point tried to add target sights and milled out the rear sight channel. The current owner has had it welded back up and made to look sort of factory. He states that a "master welder" did the work and proper heat sinks were used.

I would like to bring the gun back to its former glory and maybe even put a set of target sights on it but I am really concerned about the integrity of the frame.

Am I getting in over my head and asking for trouble?

Sounds like a money-pit. I suppose if all you are going to do is shoot .44 Specials you might get along just fine with this but it's not something I would be enthusiastic about. Just my opinion, worth nothing. I know similar work is done all the time by some of the best pistolsmiths in the business, so you can see how much I know.

I agree - and not because I have any experience in 'hacked' guns but as a welder I understand the ramifications of poor work. Unless I knew the person who did it personally I would consider it essentially junk and move on. I notice you said 'welded back up and made to look sort of factory' which is NOT factory. '"master welder" means nothing to me unless I know of his work personally. I used to repair weld SS mold blocks for a guy I knew who produced EDM etched mold blocks for dental braces so I understand precision TIG welding. Move on - quickly!

I would buy it for the value of the magnas. That can vary a lot depending on condition.

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PTLAPTA!

I'd buy it for $100 . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I knew the answer but I needed to hear it. Always hard to pass on an affordable triple lock though!


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Hold on, you didn't say it was a TL originally, that's a horse of another color.

What price range are you dealing in?

You need to ask your question of the smith that you'd consider doing the work for a definitive answer; Cyl and Slide, Clements, etc.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I'd dismiss the 'done by a master welder' comment and view the current rebuild issue as suspect as best for the moment.
The welder may have been a true Master,,might not,,you just don't know what and how it was done.

Then figure out what the rest of the rig is worth in parts to me and go after a deal from that direction.
The owner knows he;s at a disadvantage with the current condition of the gun and what's been done to it. Welding scares people off especially when it's been done to the frame (and rightfully so when you don't know by whom).

Most anything can be fixed. How much $$ you want to spend doing it is the issue. The 'money pit' comment is perfect.
There is at least one excellent firearms restoration welding comp that I'd recommend for this type of work. There are certainly others.
Gun Repair | Micro Precision Welding

Maybe it doesn't need any further welding work,,maybe it needs the entire top strap cut out and a new one welded into placed and shaped as original (yes it's done).

Lot's of differences in costs right there!
That's why the 'buy it for the parts' advise,, You may want to go a bit higher than you want too especially being a T/L. But temper that feeling with the knowledge that the end result will still be a repaired/ refinished T/L and be valued as one.
I enjoy saving the cast aside, abused and unloved firearms as much as anyone, but if you're not doing all or nearly all of the work yourself, it truely will be a very expensive labor of love
JMHO

I know some great welders, one of my brothers is a certified welding inspector. Even if I had a great tig welder weld on a frame and even if it was heat sinked while he did it, I would still be leery of that frame. First the heat sink in the rear sight area isn't going to stop the complete area of that critical corner of the frame window from becoming heat effected. Just not enough "meat" in the area to soak up the heat even if sink it. Your going to seriously mess with the steels structure in this area. Very small passes with a small torch setting could minimize this but, its still going to be there. I know frames have been converted for adjustable to fixed in this manner. Still a poor idea unless you stress relieve the frame when done. Welding is done by creating a small pool of molten metal, when that metal solidifies it shrinks, that shrinking creates stress. If I take a piece of 1" plate and run a series of small weld bead down the face of it it will bow the sides up. Less weld less bow, but its still there. 1 big weld of 10 little ones that add up to the same amount of weld are going to cause a bow from the stresses. Even then, with a perfect weld it would not be the same as a factory forging. Might be able to stand the pressures and function fine, but to me its a poor ideal and a last resort. Micro welding is some great stuff and I do believe it can be done successfully on a gun, but, this is a case of knowing exactly what your doing. Even a nuke certified alloy welder doesn't know exactly what he is doing on a gun or for that matter most of the time on the pipe, Thats why we need real engineers.

Triple locks and early models were not know for their heat treat or being used in higher pressure applications. But, still not right.

I am a gun modifier, some things I would and will weld on. Anything close to the frame window would cause me serious pause.

If you do your own work, I'd shape it up to functional & shoot a box of .44 Special. If no adverse result, then go ahead & finish it up. I'd do some measurements to check now & then as you shoot. I don't see much hazard if it fails, wear eye protection, gloves & hold at arm's length, away from other people. Most revolver failures don't injure the shooter --

He's at $800 right now. I haven't thought about which smith would do the work as I considered this a long term project.

I am a champion of lost causes and to me, the TL's hold an almost mystical value. That being said, I think it's way over priced.
I just recently found an original 5" for only $200 more.

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Regards,
Bruce

I would be a little concerned about the supposed heat sink.....


Would be a lot more interested about the drawing back (re-tempering)
of the welded areas or the whole frame for that matter.


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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I too believe in restoring unloved old S&W's but messing with the metal with extreme heat even if done by a quality welder would make me very nervous. At $400 it would be a no brainer but at $800 I would think that you are too close to the purchase price of a real gun. Maybe not on one of the auction sites where prices get inflated due to the size of the potential buyer pool but perhaps from a local seller or small gun show.

As others have stated, you would still have a messed with TL which will always scare away many future buyers.

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James Redfield
LM #497

I am going to see if he will come off his price and maybe I can purchase it for the value of its parts as it is the only way that makes sense to me without know who did the work

That could be the ticket.........


An Outdoorsman Becomes a Triple Lock....Shot it Today (Target in post 39)




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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

You said it has pre-war magnas on it. That makes the gun value at $400 which is probably what selling discrete parts would bring. Of course, I'm assuming the magnas are in decent condition.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

The pre-ware magnas seem to be in OK condition, but looks like they will probably need to be sent off to Paul (DWFan)

Well, that'll knock the value a bit if they need work.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Would not touch it with 10 foot pole!

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There is considered thought. Then there is wishful thinking.

Pick one.

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Almost anything can be fixed if you want to badly enough... but that said, the gun in question has been messed with repeatedly. It's collector value is trashed. The cost of repair exceeds the value of the piece... by far! If repaired / rebuilt it's value would never be enough to recoupe the costs. If it could be bought at salvage value, the equation would be different. My advise would be to make a salvage value offer or walk away. You can buy an intact piece (for twice the money) and you'll come out ahead.

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"The pre-ware magnas seem to be in OK condition, but looks like they will probably need to be sent off to Paul (DWFan) "

That would make them look better but is also likely to make them worth less (unless they are basket cases to start with). Like many others, I wouldn't be interested in paying much more than a giveaway price for it, basically whatever it's worth if parted out.

Being a "master welder" lol I realize that the metallurgy changes at 400 degrees F. Using a heat sink is kind of out dated for what was done. There's a heat barrier putty that's been out for decades. Run forest run unless you want a wall hanger.

I don't know what welding would do to the strength of a frame back then. I don't believe guns were heat treated during manufacture when that TL's frame was made, nor what steel alloys were used. If low carbon steel, it couldn't have been heat treated anyway.

Well it looks like I will be passing on that TL as the seller is firm on his price. I have the sneaking suspicion that I just saved myself a bunch of headaches and money.


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You saved yourself from being possibly hurt too. Good thinking on your part. I deceided it's only paper money. I save up a tad more and stay looking.

I have a nice triple lock already but I liked the idea of saving one from the scrap heap!


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I saw it too, but passed.
You really did the right thing.

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Regards,
Bruce

Whew...a good ending to this story. I was fearful that it was going to be one of those tales where twenty guys say "No go",or "Cheap,for parts" and the OP can't help himself,and plows right into the deal.

True that it would not have been heat treated originally, but after welding it WILL have weld induced stress.This could be dealt with by heating the frame up to around 900 f, holding it there for a period of time (dependent on thickness)and then slowly cooling it over a period of about 12 or more hours. If the gun was used to fire rounds in the 14000k range as originally designed it probably wouldn't matter one way or the other.

Plus, low carbon steel can and is often heat treated. It will not harden to any degree, but there is a LOT more to heat treating than hardening to form martensite. Harding is only one type or procedure of heat treatment, annealing and stress relieving, resetting the grain and tempering are other types of heat treat. There is a lot of low carbon welded pressure piping that gets stress relieved.

It is my belief that one of the refinements in S&W heat treatment had to be a step to reset the grain after forging. Forging needs to occur at temps over 1600 f and that kind of temperature will cause grain growth. Larger grain structure is more brittle than smaller grain structure.
A hardening and tempering cycle without resetting the grain would result in a inferior steel structure. S&W frames and cylinders are not hard. Actually about the same hardness as mild steel. It is all in how they got to that hardness. Soft fine grained martensite is way tougher than soft pearlite. Tough and hard are not tthe same either. Hardly.

Forged in fire is an interesting show, but they never show or discuss resetting the grain or the tempering cycle. Any blade made without these steps is going to suffer failure. Without tempering they would all break on impact testing. A fully hardened blade before tempering will often shatter just dropping it on the floor. I once had a piece snap just sitting it down on an anvil.

There are tons of myths, misunderstandings, etc about steel, its properties and especially about heat treatment.

Here is one. File steel is brittle. LOL, same steel is used to make cable like used on cranes. Difference? Heat treatment.

Wisdom is not something we're born with. To become wise, we have to process all the knowledge we pick up along the road of life. My journey isn't over yet....

Mark

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S&W Forum Member #721

Ever notice how everything that's desirable to buy, collect or otherwise want, and has been repaired, has always been described as having been done by "a master" (fill in appropriate title)?
Anyone ever buy something repaired by an "adequate" craftsman? Or even "a guy who said he 'thinks' he'll take a crack at it?"
Me neither.....