.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread

[mrcvs]

And here’s number 5513:

Just a moment...

[Hondo44]

The database has been updated today and appears in post #1 of this thread where updates will be made from now on.

[mrcvs]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

The database has been updated today and appears in post #1 of this thread where updates will be made from now on.

Thank you.

I see some are noted as being converted to .45 Long Colt. Was a conversion to .45 Long Colt (or not) diligently recorded? I’m wondering if any estimate as to the percentage later converted to .45 Long Colt (or, conversely, the percentage that remain factory original) can be ascertained?

[Hondo44]

Yes, whenever the owner indicated conversion to 45 Colt or anything else I included it in the database. As far as how many to 45 Colt, no one knows. My database is only a small sampling but one could interpolate from it and apply the 45C percentage to total 455 production of about 77,000.

[StrawHat]

Those of you with both versions, could one or more of you post the weights of the two? It has been said the Brits insisted on the removal of the lack because it was prone to jam with mud and weighed too much. I am curious how much heavier it really was.

Thank you.

Kevin

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by StrawHat

Those of you with both versions, could one or more of you post the weights of the two? It has been said the Brits insisted on the removal of the [3rd lock] because it was prone to jam with mud and weighed too much. I am curious how much heavier it really was.

Thank you.

Kevin

I haven’t weighed them but it’s negligible by feel in my opinion.

The complaint about the “prone to jam” is a myth. The TL hadn’t even seen service in the trenches yet when the negotiations for the change came about. Everything I’ve read indicates the British were more concerned about the price than the function in mud. The retail price (not what the British paid) dropped about $2 per gun. And S&W already had the 2nd model designed to better compete with Colts New Service.

[StrawHat]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

I haven’t weighed them but it’s negligible by feel in my opinion.

The complaint about the “prone to jam” is a myth. The TL hadn’t even seen service in the trenches yet when the negotiations for the change came about. Everything I’ve read indicates the British were more concerned about the price than the function in mud. The retail price (not what the British paid) dropped about $2 per gun. And S&W already had the 2nd model designed to better compete with Colts New Service.

Thank you. I did not buy into either argument. But it is interesting to compare mindsets between that era and today. Then, they wanted the most for the money spent.

Kevin

[steelslaver]

I have both
TL 2# 5.6 oz. It has been reamed and partially recessed to 45 colt, but I doubt even .2 oz of steel went away in doing so. It just isn't actually that much metal.

2nd model 2# 5.3 oz

Not much weight difference at all. In reality a bone stock TL and 2nd model are probably with in 1/2 oz" of each other

Just because they all rest in the same drawer I weight my 1937 year commercial 45ACP and it is 2# 4.2 oz but, it has a 5 1/2" barrel so that explains the oz less weight

All 3 have lanyard, same type service grips.

I doubt that the ejector shroud on the TL weighs much over 1/2 oz. Part of its volume is clearance space for its parts. The yoke and face of the frame with the cam plate actual weighs less than normal in that area because of the groove in cam plate.

[jmiles1960]

Jim,

I have a S&W Hand Ejector, 2nd Model: SN: 39965

No caliber marking on left side of barrel, just "Smith & Wesson", patent info on top, “45 Colt” stamped on right side when it was converted. (I assume)

British proof marks: broad arrow, crown, 119, E, II on back of frame
Cross flags in front of cylinder.

Gun was converted to 45 Long Colt by shaving cylinder. I found an original 455 cylinder SN: 66078 and installed / restored back to 455.

Barrel marked with 39965 SN underside. Bluing well worn, overall operation is very good. Has correct, non-serial numbered half-moon grips with gold S&W medallion.

Please let me know if you need any other info. Cool research project. Thanks!

[yeklop]

My 3 .455's.
1691, not caliber marked, British marked (bottom)
65954, caliber marked, Canadian marked (middle)
66656, caliber marked, Canadian marked (top)

[gleni]

Early parkerized. #7399. Tight old gun. Never shot it. 45 long Colt chambers well. What is value? Also E210 a unit number or rack number?

[mrcvs]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Updated 2/24/23
.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread: Caliber stamping of British contract and earlier pre contract commercial .455s categorized by the following production versions, 0. thru 4.


0. "Rare misc. early commercial production 44 TL 1st Models factory chambered in .455."
Including a pre Brit Contract special order TL subset of 25 standard .44 1st Model TLs in the .44 serial # range chambered in .45 Eley with 5” barrels, shipped Nov. 1, 1912. Thx to Jim Fisher for bringing these to our attention and sharing documentation! See #5751 below. Maybe 40 or so misc. 455s total.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-han...il-1915-a.html
4054 – no Cal marking, Assembly #1519 -.455 factory Bisley target model, drift rear sight, 7 1/2", no medallion grips, order of 25 shipped 6/10/1909 Charles Osborne & Co., Birmingham, England, round non-factory lanyard swivel drilled thru serial #, Per SCSW these were produced in the ~4100 and 4300 range, so 4054 is close enough. Need help identifying and old S&W Revolver
5751 - Caliber is 45 Eley, shipped in 1912 in a coml order of 25, 5” guns to H. Robitsek, Canada, post #26: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-han...il-1915-a.html
7827 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, in Germany


1. “44 Hand Ejector-1st Model” Triple Lock, 812 (666 military & 146 commercially sold) in the 44 Spl # series factory converted to 455. Serial #s are listed in Neal & Jinks S&W 1857 – 1945, Pgs 204-205, known to have been stamped SMITH & WESSON but not including the 455 cal. stamp.

1616 - NO CAL ROLLMARK 455, lanyard thru the serial # and restamped on grip frame, no British stamps at all (sold to an officer?), now converted to 45 Colt
5755 - NO CAL ROLLMARK 455, (the highest # known of the 67 duplicates with Category 2 guns below), Letter: Post #339 here: .455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread
6919 - shipped Oct. 21, 1914, resides in Portugal.
8493 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, minimal military stampings but one of the 666, almost like NIB
9860 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, one of the 23 converted to 45 Colt and sold commercially, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918. : Can you help me identify?


2. “455 Mark II Hand Ejector-1st Model” Triple Lock #1 thru at least #5802* (previously thought to be 5461, and several higher #s in this range shipped commercial).
* “The serial numbers in the .455 Hand Ejector series 5721 - 5802 are all .455 second series triple locks and were all shipped commercial generally to Canada dealers. Hope that this helps.” Roy After this shipment there were some of this model sold commercially all in the 5502 - 5857 range, but including a few military issues in that range as well.

31 – No Cal or SMITH & WESSON Rollmarks, appears to be converted to 45 Colt by shaving the cyl are reaming.
118 – shipped 1914
225 – jmaces57 has a known #225 .44 TL duplicate # owned by mrcvs Finally a Triple-Lock - the Good, the Bad and the Maybe?
263 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, converted to and marked 45 AR
272 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
319 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, in Australia Wilcock converted to a 38 target, no English stamps. Canadian broad arrow.
355 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, Factory converted to .45, and refinished R-S in rectangle in Feb 1975.
358 – NO CAL ROLLMARK, (October 1914) converted to shoot 45 Colt by recessing chambers so 455 can still be fired
444 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
489 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
718 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, 1st shipment 10/21/14 of Rem. UMC to England). Aussie gun, Engraved name sandblasted
844 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, Y4505 on frame behind trigger guard, small Interarms over Alexandria, (VA ) on left side of frame below front of cylinder
930 – NO CAL ROLLMARK, cylinder measures 1 5/8"
1055 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, converted to 45 Colt by shaving recoil shield
1277 – NO CAL ROLLMARK, shipped to REM-UMC No 23, 1914 per letter
1709 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
1911 – NO CAL ROLLMARK, not even Smith & Wesson.
1203 – NO CAL ROLLMARK
1510 - No caliber stamp, shipped December 1, 1914, converted to 45 Colt by shaving recoil shield
1549 – NO CAL ROLLMARK
1723 - No Cal or SMITH & WESSON Rollmarks, round butted and re-blued
2013 – NO CAL ROLLMARK
2147 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, serial # not drilled thru for Lanyard, from Canada
2373 - NO CAL ROLLMARK from Switzerland, in Germany
2477 – NO CAL ROLLMARK
2703 – shipped 12/16/14
2747 - NO CAL ROLLMARK converted to .22 Long Rifle Triple Lock sn# 2747 chambered in .22 Long Rifle
2934 - no factory markings on barrel, "Simpson Ltd." markings on butt above serial #, shipped Dec 1914
2940 - no cal rollmark,
3075 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
3143 – NO CAL ROLLMARK, Shipped 12/16/14 to Remington Arms- Union metallic Cartridge Co.
3147 - stamped on right hand side of barrel
3240 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, military markings
3349 - no cal mark
3459 - Shipped 02 September 1913
3604 - NO CAL ROLLMARK Shipped 30 Dec 1914 to Union Metallic Cartridge Co.
3628 - NO CAL ROLLMARK converted to .45LC (recessed conversion)
3699 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, original .455 configuration. x-pennants, in & out broad arrows
3863 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
3905 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, no English proofs, the mark that looks like a big asterisk on right front is two Broad Arrows, point to point indicates that the British government purchased it, then sold it "out of stores". The column of marks on the left side, rather curvy Broad Arrow, Crown, A2 and E indicates that it was accepted into service by inspector A2 at the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield.
3932 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
4172 - NO CAL ROLLMARK military shipped in 1918
4324 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
4350 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
4365 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, shipped Dec 1914
4534 - NO CAL ROLLMARK in Germany
4535 - NO CAL ROLLMARK shipped 1/7/15 English stamps, recessed chambers for .45 Colt, stamped 45 AR
4907 – NO CAL ROLLMARK shipped Jan 14,1915
5105 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
5253 - No cal marking. British proofs, 6 1/2", lanyard. Shipped Jan. 1915
5433 – No cal marking. British proofs, EL FAIYUM YI - L.R.D.G. ABBASSIEH CAIRO 1942 (on backstrap)
5462 - 455 barrel is not marked; English crown on barrel, in the last shipment [1915] of the model for the British Government.
5642 - no caliber marking on barrel, rare commercial shipment in April 1915, converted to 45 Colt:
5724 - NO CAL ROLLMARK 455, 5” single gun shipment April 28,1915, Hurd & Co., Canada http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-han...il-1915-a.html
5755 - NO CAL ROLLMARK 455, (the highest # known of the 67 duplicates with Category 1 guns above), from Canada. Letter: Post #339 here: .455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread
5788 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, Canadian 6 1/2”, 1 of 5 Com’l shipment June 4, 1915 to Hurd & Co, Canada
5792 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, converted to 45 Colt, no import, proof, etc. marks, sold commercially


3. “455 Mark II Hand Ejector-2nd Model” beginning after ~#5857 (previously thought to be 5462) thru 74755.

5907 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
6981 - SMITH & WESSON
7370 - SMITH & WESSON 455
7370 - SMITH & WESSON 455.
7766 – NO CAL ROLLMARK ALAN [MURPHYDOG]
8746 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, aftermarket windage-adj-only rear sight blade and SAA Colt style adj front sight blade.
12448 – NO CAL ROLLMARK on barrel
12508 – NO FACTORY CAL ROLLMARK, converted to 45 ACP/RR, stamped ".45AP"
12597 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
12609 – 455 marked, shipped 11/24/16 to Caverrill, Learmony & Co., Montreal, Canada, Lee Jarrett’s: The Young LT's Triple Lock .455
12691 - Roll Marked .455, no foreign proofs or US Import marks that was shipped 2/1917
13XXX – S&W but w/o .455
14337 – NO CAL ROLLMARK 10663 - NO CTG ROLLMARK, shipped to Winch for ammo testing
15543 – NO CAL ROLLMARK
16872 - no caliber roll marking, shipped to Remington Arms on Sept. 23, 1915, British markings
17320 - marked 455 left side
17551 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, found in attic in New Zealand, no English stamps
19171 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
19478 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
21273 - marked .455, shipped to the Canadian Government in Ottawa on October 14, 1915.
21938 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
22425 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
22486 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, converted to 45 Colt
22970 – NO CAL ROLLMARK
23714 - NO CAL ROLLMARK
25052 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, usual British stamps
26007 – NO CAL ROLLMARK, Nov 1915, sleeved to .38
26161 – not likely marked, the revolver was imported from Canada back in the 1970's
27465 -
27536 - "S & W .455 "Left side of Barrel, back from ctr, cylinder also measures 1 5/8"
28070 - crossed flags only, on the frame at the barrel joint
28185 – Smith & Wesson 455
28339 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, Marked 3MD on backstrap, location Australia
28839 – NO CAL ROLLMARK
29198 - caliber marked, Located in Germany
29321 – cal marked, broad arrows (accepted into and ‘deassessioned’ out of inventory), crown on heel; shipped to Ottawa, CA 12-4-15 marks here post # 5: S&W HE MK II .455 Canadian Military Marking Question
29515 - left side barrel is marked SMITH & WESSON .455, shipped in December of 1915
29954 - stamped 455, British acceptance stamps and, I think, Australian unit stamp.
30414 – cal marked 455 shipped Dec. 16, 1915 to Remington Arms-Union Metallic Cartridge in NY
30825 - marked "Smith & Wesson .455" on barrel, "Simpson Ltd." import markings on butt above serial #
31138 – stamped left hand side
31184 – STAMPED .455
31739 - marked 455 left side
31776 - LH side of barrel roll marked "Smith & Wesson .455.
31782 - caliber marked, converted to 45 ACP Cylinder faced off, in Germany
33498 - caliber marked
33814 – caliber marked, possibly converted to .45 Colt
35064 - roll marked .455 on barrel Canadian C circle arrow marked
35284 - roll marked .455 on barrel
35711 - roll marked .455 on L side of bbl, shipped on Jan 6, 1916
36322 - marked 455, and London Armory very small bottom side of the barrel
36554 - 455 roll mark on barrel, converted to 45 colt
36771 - shipped in January 1916
36804 - roll marked .455
3680X - roll marked .455, shipped Jan 6, 1916
37063 - roll marked .455
37891 - roll marked .455, 2nd Model HE, known as ‘Bapty’, with detailed photos here: Indiana Jones and The Raiders of The Lost Ark screen used revolver: https://www.mrgundealer.com/shop/ind...he-bapty-47063
37923 - roll marked on left side of barrel
39XXX - roll marked .455, converted to 45 Colt the best way, and dull hard chromed
39738 - roll marked .455 on barrel x-pennants, in & out broad arrows
40096 - marked .455
41770 – marked .455
41779 – marked .455
41893 – was marked .455, converted & re-stamped 45 Colt in place, February 3, 1916 shipped to Remington UMC
42266 - rollmarked “Smith & Wesson .455.”
42922 - marked .455, deactivated, on Boham’s auction, England
42949 – marked .455, converted to 45 Colt recessed
43067 - marked "Smith & Wesson .455" on left side of the barrel
43429 – Smith & Wesson .455
43769 - SMITH & WESSON 455, butt stamped with serial number twice, on each side of the lanyard hole
43807 – Smith & Wesson .455
44291 – Smith & Wesson .455
45484 - roll marked on left side of barrel
46748 – NO CAL ROLLMARK factory 45 Colt from the group of 15, commercial shipment
47109 - SMITH & WESSON 455
48906 - SMITH & WESSON 455 Canadian marks
49346 - Smith & Wesson .455, lacks MK II stamp and associated stamps in that location, likely a commercially sold example likely by Army & Navy Co-operative Stores Society (England), not from the BSR contract for used by the military
52340 – 455 STAMPED
52908 - shipped April 1916 455 STAMPED. All three went to England.
53433 - Caliber marked "SMITH & WESSON .455, Crown over O on the butt, shipped 7/4/1916 to Canadian Govt
53468 - marked .455 on LS of barrel.
54795 – marked 455 on LS, assembly # on the butt upside down. Posts #203, 209 & 211 in this thread.
56050 – marked .455 left side
56167 - Smith & Wesson .455 left side of barrel.
56603 - marked .455 left side
57387 - NO CAL ROLLMARK shipped to Rem UMC for Great Britain
57580 - Marked S&W .455., Canadian, converted to 45 Colt, reblued, post war Magnas
58252 – Marked S&W .455., 99%, Commercial, 1 of 1105 shipped Dec. 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware, King front sight, pre war S&W 2 screw adj rear sight, .455 Second with factory target rear sight.
58547 -. shipped May 1916 “
59045 - shipped May 1916 “
59365 - caliber marked
61135 - 455 stamped, converted to 45 Colt by filing the recoil shield
61801 – NO CAL ROLLMARK
62941 - marked 455 LH Side
63279 - stamped Smith and Wesson .455. on left side
63476 - stamped Smith and Wesson .455. on left side
64344 - .455 from Shapleigh Dec 1917
65305 - Smith & Wesson .455., cyl shaved for 45 ACP/AR, extra 1917 cyl for 45 ACP/AR, marked E149.
66078 - Smith & Wesson .455, shipped July 1916
66549 - caliber marked, in Germany
66573 - marked Smith & Wesson .455.
66860 - 455 marking, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware Dec 1917
67087 – S&W 455 marked
67399 - .455 marked the barrel, proof mark crown over 30 Canadian on butt, double arrow in C left frame
6753X - .455 marked the barrel, only proof mark present is the crown over 30 Canadian mark on the butt
67691 - stamped .455 coml. gun shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in Dec 29, 1917
68514 - SMITH & WESSON 455
68995 - pending
69234 - marked Smith & Wesson .455, no martial markings or British proofs, commercially shipped
Dec 1917, to Shapleigh Hardware
69296 – Mine, Roll marked 455, converted to 45 with charge holes, drilled to smooth bore, side plate logo is different than my TLs (plainer like later vintage TLs). I converted it to a Triple Lock for the .45 S&W Special cartridge w/TL 455 barrel and post war 45 ACP cyl.
69789 – S&W 455 marked, went to Canada
70XXX - S&W 455 marked, no military or import marks
71989 - marked Smith & Wesson .455
728XX – Smith & Wesson .455, shipped 7/29/16, to Canadian Government, Ottawa, Canada, converted to 45 Colt
73536 - 455 marking
73670 – Roll marked Smith & Wesson .455, converted to 45 Colt
73778 – roll mark left side Smith & Wesson .455, now re-chambered to .45 Colt with a Micro adjustable sight
74301 – One of 724 chambered in 45 Colt shipped 5/4/1917 to Canada for the RNWMP via Phelps Dodge Mining Co.
74744 - NOT CAL ROLLMARKED, factory 45 Colt, one of the 724 shipped May 4, 1917 to the Phelps Dodge Mining Co. in New York, NY, an import/export co. and owner of the Copper Queen Mine in Arizona where it was headquartered in the late 19th century.
74755 – highest # 2nd model thought to have been made, shipped 1915-17.


4. “44 Hand Ejector-1st Model” Triple Lock chambered in .455: 691 assembled into .445s at the end of the British contract but sold on the commercial market 1916-17, built from remaining TL frames and numbered in the 44 Spl # series ~ 12,000 – 14,XXX range. Although some are known to have been shipped to or wound up in England.
9943, TL no barrel marking, (455. .75), TOB -
12459 - cal marked, from CAN, no Gov’t stampings
124XX – cal marked, no martial stamps
12473 – sold commercially but military marked and saw military use, probably an officer’s gun
12493 - Left side of barrel marked Smith & Wesson 455
12496 – cal marked, British ordinance marks for acceptance into military; old TL inventory made 1914, shipped to commercial dealers in England, this one to Bigelow & Co, London, order of 300 revolvers, 12/6/16
12609 - shipped to Montreal, Canada in Nov 1916
12618 - stamped .455 (British proofs)
12646 – also went to Bigelow & Co, London
12685 - stamped .455 (British proofs)
12740 - Smith & Wesson .455, no British marks. Jinks' states that 325 units were shipped to SH 12/29/17
12742 – stamped, likely one of the 691 "Spare Parts" TL's produced in 1916 and possibly one of 325 shipped to Shapleigh Hardware, St Louis, MO on December 29, 1917, has been nickeled. But see #12496 above.
12747 - in shipment to Shapleigh HW; Jinks' entry states that 325 units were shipped on 12/29/17
12750 - Marked Smith & Wesson .455. No British stamps, produced in 1916, one of 325 shipped to Shapleigh Hardware, St Louis, MO Dec. 29, 1917
12768 - Marked Smith & Wesson .455. No British stamps, produced in 1916
12770 - Marked Smith & Wesson .455. No British stamps, sold in November of 2019
12787 – Marked Smith & Wesson 455, commercially sold to Shapleigh Hardware on Dec. 29, 1917, borderless logo
12833 – Roll Marked .455, no foreign proofs, Com’l model
12860 - Left side of barrel marked Smith & Wesson 455
129XX - Left side of barrel marked Smith & Wesson 455
12902 - Smith & Wesson 455, no British marks
12910 – cal marked, commercial
12973 – cal marked
14752 – Grips Only
14980 – cal marked TL 455 shipped commercially 12/19/1917 to Shapleigh Hardware (see file on this one.)
15055 - TL marked 455, no Brit marks - one of the 160 units shipped to Shapleigh Hardware on Dec. 29th, 1917, and numbered in the 44 serial # range, not shipped to England, even commercially.
NO # - NOS barrel only marked SMITH & WESSON .455


Original post:
I'd like to get a handle on the proportion of caliber roll marked and unmarked British service revolvers.

I want to categorize by the following production models:

0. Misc. individually produced commercial .455s.
1. 44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock, 846 in the 44 Spl # series factory converted to 455.
2. 455 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock #1 thru #5800 (formerly thought to be #5461.)
3. A. 455 Hand Ejector-2nd Model #5801 (formerly #5462) thru 74755.
4. 44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock: 691 assembled at the end of the British contract but sold on the commercial market 1916-17, numbered in the 44 Spl # series ~ 12,XXX range.

I would appreciate info from any 455 owners who'd like to participate and I'll post the results. A serial # (or partial) would be very helpful as well as whether or not it's caliber roll marked on the barrel.

Thanks all,

“2. “455 Mark II Hand Ejector-1st Model” Triple Lock #1 thru at least #5802* (previously thought to be 5461, and several higher #s in this range shipped commercial).
* “The serial numbers in the .455 Hand Ejector series 5721 - 5802 are all .455 second series triple locks and were all shipped commercial generally to Canada dealers. Hope that this helps.” Roy After this shipment there were some of this model sold commercially all in the 5502 - 5857 range, but including a few military issues in that range as well.”

This should be Mark I, I believe.

[yeklop]

Another to add although perhaps not to much info to add regarding caliber markings as this one was sent back to S&W & fitted with adjustable sights, a .38 sp barrel & cylinder & re-blued.
Still has the crown proof on the bottom of the butt though.
No date or records for the work done unfortunately.

52968, shipped to Ottawa, Canada April 1916.

[StrawHat]

Another question, when were the first, and last 455 revolvers shipped to satisfy the contract with Great Britain?

Kevin

[Hondo44]

Earliest shipments went out in 1914 then thru 1916. However commercial shipments of over-run guns extended into 1917.

[StrawHat]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Earliest shipments went out in 1914 then thru 1916. However commercial shipments of over-run guns extended into 1917.

So, the Government Contract was 1914 - 1916. Commercial shipments to individuals? Bases? Supply houses?

Kevin

[Wiregrassguy]

Kevin, IIRC there was a large shipment (~1000) of .455 HE 1st and 2nd Models to Shapleigh Hardware on December 29, 1917. I have a commercial 2nd Model that was part of that shipment.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by StrawHat

So, the Government Contract was 1914 - 1916. Commercial shipments to individuals? Bases? Supply houses?

Kevin

The largest quantities went to dealers: Wilkinson Sword in the UK, Shapleigh HW in St. Louis took large orders, a few guns to Canada. Very few private shipments. There likely is close to 1000 total non military guns shipped but all thru contract production including all four .455 versions: 1st TYPE TLs 146 (of 812 converted .44s), 2nd type TLs, 3rd type- 2nd models, and 4th type -converted .44 TLs.

Recognize however, that many guns from these com’l shipments did actually make it into the military and saw service in WWI.

[StrawHat]

Thank you. I was just trying to figure when the contract started and stopped. 1914-1916.

Kevin

[Hondo44]

Kevin,
I need to correct the shipping years to: thru 1917. See shipping dates in my post, the 1st post.

Also note the 724 shipped May 4, 1917, 2nd models in 45 Colt in the 74XXX range shipped to Phelps Dodge.

[Thinnes]

I’ve got.455 Mark II TL. SN 3777. Barrel has patent dates and 3 BV bombs. Stamped Not English made. Numbers matching save for grips. Likely refinish. Each cylinder recess stamped with bombs. Crossed flags, crossed sticks, maybe a bird stamp. Neat gun
Also a 44 TL sn 11423. Numbers match. Came with old ivory grips. Original nickel finish. Pls add. Thanks for doing this. Dave

[BC38]

Originally Posted by Thinnes

I’ve got.455 Mark II TL. SN 3777. Barrel has patent dates and 3 BV bombs. Stamped Not English made. Numbers matching save for grips. Likely refinish. Each cylinder recess stamped with bombs. Crossed flags, crossed sticks, maybe a bird stamp. Neat gun
Also a 44 TL sn 11423. Numbers match. Came with old ivory grips. Original nickel finish. Pls add. Thanks for doing this. Dave

Got any pictures? We LIKE pictures....

[mrcvs]

From this thread, serial number 2231, no markings on the barrel.

Triple Lock 455 Eley

[Hondo44]

Thank you. 2231 from somewhere in Europe is a type 2 Triple Lock. I’ll add to the list in post #1.

[ENNE-FRAME]

3131946.jpg

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Thank you. 2231 from somewhere in Europe is a type 2 Triple Lock. I’ll add to the list in post #1.

Italy, city of Rimini
Another one in northern Italy, cal 455 Eley serial number 3270 picture attached
Later i'll report the markings on the barrel

[Hondo44]

Marcello,

#3270 - Another Type 2 Triple Lock. I'll add both to the list.
Thank you,

[GCH]

Got this about 3 years ago at a gun show in Post Falls, Idaho. $600 (the good old days)

6 1/2" Barrel w/ no roll marks except patent dates on top. Re-blue w/ fixed sights. Era matching grips w/ brass inserts.

Production number "1091" on frame and inside side plate. Production number "4501" on triple lock crane, along with "B 5366" and "5366".

"NOT ENGLISH MAKE" on frame at barrel and crossed swords w/ "?28" under thumb piece. Strike out mark on back strap.

See pictures for barrel markings.

Serial number listed on page 205 of 'Smith & Wesson 1857-1945' by Neal & Jinks as one of 666 converted for WW1.

Post-war, converted to .45ACP by replacing cylinder and extractor with number 118267 w/ military Eagle over "S24" (Probably from a 1917).

Serial number "9337" obscured on butt by addition of lanyard loop. Number "9337" on frame under left grip. "B 9337" in barrel shroud.

[GCH]

More pics..............

[GCH]

pics................

[StrawHat]

Originally Posted by GCH

"NOT ENGLISH MAKE" on frame at barrel and crossed swords w/ "?28" under thumb piece. Strike out mark on back strap…


Post-war, converted to .45ACP by replacing cylinder and extractor with number 118267 w/ military Eagle over "S24" (Probably from a 1917)….

That New Century would pair well with one of my 45 HE Model 1917s, also marked, “NOT ENGLISH MAKE”.

If it ever needs a new home…

Kevin

[GCH]

Originally Posted by StrawHat

That New Century would pair well with one of my 45 HE Model 1917s, also marked, “NOT ENGLISH MAKE”.

If it ever needs a new home…

Kevin

I have a pair of Smith 1917s that it sits with, along with a Colt 1917 and three other .44 SP Triple locks.

GCH

[StrawHat]

Originally Posted by GCH

I have a pair of Smith 1917s that it sits with, along with a Colt 1917 and three other .44 SP Triple locks.

GCH

But,…do any of those bear the stamp, “NOT ENGLISH MAKE”?

My 1917 does!

Kevin

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by GCH

Got this about 3 years ago at a gun show in Post Falls, Idaho. $600 (the good old days)

6 1/2" Barrel w/ no roll marks except patent dates on top. Re-blue w/ fixed sights. Era matching grips w/ brass inserts.

Production number "1091" on frame and inside side plate. Production number "4501" on triple lock crane, along with "B 5366" and "5366".

"NOT ENGLISH MAKE" on frame at barrel and crossed swords w/ "?28" under thumb piece. Strike out mark on back strap.

See pictures for barrel markings.

Serial number listed on page 205 of 'Smith & Wesson 1857-1945' by Neal & Jinks as one of 666 converted for WW1.
(
Post-war, converted to .45ACP by replacing cylinder and extractor with number 118267 w/ military Eagle over "S24" (Probably from a 1917).

Serial number "9337" obscured on butt by addition of lanyard loop. Number "9337" on frame under left grip. "B 9337" in barrel shroud.

Very interesting gun, thanks for posting!

You clearly have one of the 666 type 1 TLs converted to .455 Mk II cartridge from brand new unsold .44 Spl TLs in inventory and therefore in the .44 serial # range. The lanyard swivel drilled through the butt # and stamped on side of the grip frame also confirms it. We haven’t seen many of the 666 and when we do see them they’re often modified in some way like yours because they’ve been around the longest. The grips are likely original and may still show the matching serial # penciled on the back side of the right grip. The medallions are brass but gold plated.

Obviously so has the cyl and extractor star.
Where exactly is the 4501 stamped on the yoke (crane is a Colt part name)?
What # is stamped on the backside of the yoke only visible by looking thru a chamber?
And what # is stamped on the cam plate for the middle lock?

[GCH]

The grips are likely original and may still show the matching serial # penciled on the back side of the right grip. The medallions are brass but gold plated.

The assembly # also known as the work number 5366 should be on the yoke, the yoke cutout in the frame and inside side plate, (the B is a separate inspector or fitters stamp). So your side plate #1061 has been replaced. Obviously so has the cyl and extractor star.

Where on the frame is the #1091 stamped?
Where exactly is the 4501 stamped on the yoke (crane is a Colt part name)?
What # is stamped on the backside of the yoke only visible by looking thru a chamber?
And what # is stamped on the cam plate for the middle lock?[/QUOTE]



I should have said the medallions are gold colored. No pencil marks are visible inside the grips.

See the pictures for location of the stampings for your first two questions.
Backside of "yoke" number is "B 5366". (I always thot "B" stood for Blue).
Cam plate number is "5366".

[Hondo44]

Your right, the B stands for blue finish when in front of a serial #. That’s why I asked for clarification of exactly where on the yoke the 5366 #s were. So you have a yoke and cam from another TL; so parts of 3 different revolvers.

[GCH]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Your right, the B stands for blue finish when in front of a serial #. That’s why I asked for clarification of exactly where on the yoke they were. So you have a yoke and cam from another TL; so parts of 3 different revolvers .

A Frankenstein. I wonder if any of the work was done at S&W?
Doubt it, since there are no marks under the grips.

[Hondo44]

That’s why the 4501 assembly # on yoke doesn’t match the two other assembly #s 1061 in frame cutout and side plate. So the side plate is original after all.

No way to tell which serial # range the yoke and cam came from; can be from a 44 Spl or .455 Type 1 TL.

No, definitely not done by S&W. You’re right the factory would have stamped a reworked date depending on the time period the work was done.
But also would have stamped the serial # matching the gun on the new replacement parts.

Thx again, I’ll add your TL to the database and update it in post #1 in the near future.

[Hondo44]

GCH,

Your TL #9337 - shipped in 1914.

Replaced yoke and cam from TL 5366 which can be from a 44 Spl or .455 Type 2 TL (no way to tell which serial # range it’s from).

Also the extractor rod knob is homemade and not an original TL knob.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by StrawHat

But,…do any of those bear the stamp, “NOT ENGLISH MAKE”?

My 1917 does!

Kevin

Kevin,

You have a WWII Era British proof marked 1917s: About 20,000 1917s were sold to Britain and will have British proof marks, see post #11 here: Model 1917 odd barrel markings - can you help?

Originally Posted by handejector

France fell in May, 40.
330,000 Brit and French soldiers pushed into the sea at Dunkirk.
Battle of Britain beginning, invasion looked imminent.
Roosevelt ordered "surplus" arms to be sold (probably very cheaply) to Britain, including 20,000 Mod 1917s that were delivered between June and Sept.
See Pate's book, page 19
You guys never seem to remember this when a 1917 with Brit proofs shows up. Write it down.

The “NOT ENGLISH MAKE” on your gun is an export mark which means it came back across the big pond officially.

Here's a strange one:

1917 converted to 455: Need help in identifying and value of a war relic
It could be from WWI or one of the above from WWII, converted afterwards to 455 in England for use by a citizen, then proofed as it would be, to be exported back to the USA. Whereupon, it was converted back to 45 ACP.
See the London stamp, arm over NP stamp, mentioned in post #4 & #7 above: http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

[Hondo44]

FYI: I have updated the databank in post #1 of this thread today.

[mrcvs]

In addition to shipping July 1916, serial number 73497 has the following on the barrel: “Smith & Wesson .455.” (pregnant ampersand). Additionally, it’s a Commercial Model.

[Hondo44]

Got it and updated. Thx!

[longlee]

Addition to the list:

S&W 2nd mod. Hand Ejector ser.# 64682 so marked on butt and barrel flat, marked 4 digit 6468 on crane and frame. Roll marked "Smith & Wesson .455. on left side of barrel. No other proofs or markings (so commercial?). Very sadly, the recoil shield has been quite delicately filed by some hooligan, I assume to accommodate 45 Colt of some flavor. The flame cut marks in the cylinders appear to be at 455 Mk 1/2 cartridge depth (NOT 45 Long Colt), so maybe it was shot a bit with 45 "Short" Colt. No matter, this is part of the history of the firearm. Rear of the cylinder appears untouched with no serial number (which I think is correct?). This joins my two triple locks. A British issued and proofed 455 converted to 45 LC on re-importation, and a heavily restored 455 triple that came to me after apparently being used as a tent peg hammer somewhere near the Khyber Pass (just kidding! But it was ruff... looks nice now, but unashamedly restored).

[BC38]

Originally Posted by longlee

Addition to the list:

S&W 2nd mod. Hand Ejector ser.# 64682 so marked on butt and barrel flat, marked 4 digit 6468 on crane and frame. Roll marked "Smith & Wesson .455. on left side of barrel. No other proofs or markings (so commercial?). Very sadly, the recoil shield has been quite delicately filed by some hooligan, I assume to accommodate 45 Colt of some flavor. The flame cut marks in the cylinders appear to be at 455 Mk 1/2 cartridge depth (NOT 45 Long Colt), so maybe it was shot a bit with 45 "Short" Colt. No matter, this is part of the history of the firearm. Rear of the cylinder appears untouched with no serial number (which I think is correct?). This joins my two triple locks. A British issued and proofed 455 converted to 45 LC on re-importation, and a heavily restored 455 triple that came to me after apparently being used as a tent peg hammer somewhere near the Khyber Pass (just kidding! But it was ruff... looks nice now, but unashamedly restored).

What, no pictures?

Welcome to the forum.

We'd love to see photos of the revolvers mentioned in your inaugural post! We REALLY like pictures of old S&W revolvers! If you need some help posting photos, feel free to speak up, there are numerous members here who can help.

[Hondo44]

Welcome to the forum.

Thx for the addition to the database. Your 2nd model BSR should have a serial number on the rear face of the cylinder.

If the shoulders in the chambers are in original locations (long enough for the.455 Mk I which is a little longer than the MKII), I agree someone modified it to shoot some other .45 cal. Could be .45 Schofield or the even shorter .45 Cowboy.
That would explain the missing serial number on the cylinder and filing of the breechface.

[AJ]

Nice revolvers, will need to look for one. Until I find one will have to live with my Bubba'd Colt New Service made in 1916 with Canadian Proofs.

[RS2000CUSTOM]

1st Post

Found this thread whilst researching S&W Triple Lock

Here in UK it is a real pain in the rear to own "anything" firearm related (but that's a whole different story)

To own a pistol is near impossible unless it has an extended barrel and a "silly stock" extension fitted

BUT

there is a way we can "own" a pre-1919 pistol under Heritage and Special Interest rules we call Section 7.3

The pistol I am awaiting authority from UK Police is a WW1 British Government issue Smith & Wesson Triple Lock - Hand Ejector 1st Model

Any help or information I can obtain to prove its relevance, age, provenance or history will be gratefully received and I will use this information in my discussions with UK Police.

Hope pictures give you all plenty to discuss

Thanks

Dave

[RS2000CUSTOM]

Page 2 - pics

[RS2000CUSTOM]

Page 3 - Pics

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum RS2000CUSTOM.