UPDATE 2nd Model HE in .455 Webley Now with pictures!

Figured I should get an N frame at some point , and I found an unmolested 2nd model HE chambered in .455 which is wending its way to my FFL (so no pics yet). It's SN is 3680X and it has the "crossed flags" Brit proof stamp, but no other "proof"markings except Smith & Wesson .455 on the barrel. I'm wondering if it ever made it overseas.

I was wondering if someone could give me an approximate date of manufacture?

Thanks!

I'll post some pics when it finally gets here, and thanks to Muley Gil, ordered 7 boxes of the Midway sale .455 ammo.

To my knowledge the crossed-pennants British military proof was not applied in this country, so this gun did leave; on .455 HEs (just like on pre-lend-lease BSRs), it is almost always accompanied by the acceptance stamp set from RSAF Enfield on the left back frame.

Absalom said:

To my knowledge the crossed-pennants British military proof was not applied in this country, so this gun did leave; on .455 HEs (just like on pre-lend-lease BSRs), it is almost always accompanied by the acceptance stamp set from RSAF Enfield on the left back frame.

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Could the acceptance stamp be on the butt? There's a stamp there, but the rest of the gun is plain-o jane-o.

delcrossv said:

Could the acceptance stamp be on the butt? There's a stamp there, but the rest of the gun is plain-o jane-o.

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Maybe Canadian? I'm waiting for our specialist in these, Jim (Hondo44) to join and tell us just what you have, but I'd have to see the stamp to speculate further.

I have over a doz. .44HE, 2nd models, in my data base, in serial range 36,200 to 37, 600. Ship dates are mostly in 1931-1933 range. All are .44 Spl. caliber, except 37,560 is .455 cal and it was sent to England as part of a group, however it is Canadian marked. Ed.

That serial number puts it almost exactly halfway through the range of HE2s sent to England 1915 - 1917. Of course, serial numbered guns in that range went to Canada as well.

The Canadians also used the crossed pennants proof mark. Just speculation on my part, but I imagine the "455" on the barrel would have been more important on a revolver going to Canada, where various American revolvers were sold chambered in .45 Colt. Putting the caliber designation on the barrel would avoid potential ammunition purchasing confusion. The revolvers S&W sent to England were for military use, and therefore it was understood by their end users that the arm was chambered for the current military round. No need to proclaim that on the barrel.

So 1916 or 1931?

I'm now thoroughly confused.

The closest SN on my list to yours is 357xx which shipped in 1/16. Are you sure that the one you bought is not one of those converted to .45 Colt?

DWalt said:

The closest SN on my list to yours is 357xx which shipped in 1/16. Are you sure that the one you bought is not one of those converted to .45 Colt?

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No. 45 LC won't seat against the cylinder face. It's .455. First thing I asked.

Looks like your 455 shipped with a large lot in January, 1916.

glowe said:

Looks like your 455 shipped with a large lot in January, 1916.

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So now I'm curious as to how these made their way back to the States. (?)

Lots of previous posts on these with good info. Use the search button at the top of the page.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

delcrossv, # 37,560, .455 caliber, was shipped in January 1916, per Jinks. Ed.

Congrats on a nice unmolested/converted BSR. You have a 3.A. version of the BSR contract revolvers.

Ed is right, shipped 1/16, more precisely in a group shipped Jan. 6, 1916. We don't have a source for manufacturing dates, but these were shipped is many smaller group shipments ASAP for the war so it's highly likely it was completed within weeks or even days before shipping.

More details on this version below:

3.A. ".455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model" (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with cylinder pin hole reduced .020" and the Ext Rod is reduced .020" in diameter (Neal & Jinks Pg. 215-16) from versions 1. the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and 2. the ".455 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" produced in .455. This version was referred to as the MK II revolver by the British and stamped 'II' by them, left side frame.

The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning ~#5801 (previously thought to be 5462) to #74755, shipped 1915-17.

By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, without a cartridge roll mark on barrel, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203].

Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916; likely "over run" guns from the above order.

The Canadian military also bought 14,500* .455 2nd Models [H of S&W, pg. 203].

And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].


*Canadian military shipments of 14,500:

-1500 Shipped after Aug. 1915
-850 Shipped thru December 24th, 1915
-150 Shipped thru March 31st, 1916
-6000 Shipped thru July 22nd, 1916
-6000 Shipped February 10, 1917
At least 1 #728XX shipped July 29th, 1916, see post #10: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...5-455-hand-ejector-45-colt.html#post139027072


Since your gun does not sound like it has any proof/export stamps, it came back home to the USA thru "unofficial channels". In other words in a soldier's duffel bag, with a Navy sailor or merchant marine aboard a com'l ship, mailed home, in a tourist's suitcase after the war, across the border in the trunk of a car, etc.

If it had the full nine yards of proof/export stamps, it would have been exported by an English/Canadian company to a USA import company. And w/o those stamps we have no way of knowing how long ago that might have happened.

Thanks Jim, Ed, Gary and everyone! Personally, I find the "clean, unstamped" look appealing.

Pictures next week.

Without British proof marks, I can't help but think this gun must have gone to a Canadian contract, and not Great Britain.

mm93 said:

Without British proof marks, I can't help but think this gun must have gone to a Canadian contract, and not Great Britain.

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It just has the one "crossed pennants" and an undetermined one on the butt.

Agreed, Curiouser and curiouser. Being from Chicago, it's looking to me like it "fell off the truck" somewhere along the way and came back through "unofficial channels" like Jim says.

A lot of the proofmarks were placed on firearms after the wars, in order to export them (I think I remember that correctly).

I'm looking forward to seeing this one. Where's it at now? LOL. What length barrel?

If it is unmolested, barrel length has to be 6.5 inches.