Big Throats Again? The Saga Continues.

keithherrington

keithherrington

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Recently bought a Model 25-5 because I just love 45 Colt and sold all my other blued S&Ws in that caliber. Picked up one as close to new as I've ever seen.




Everything on it is as perfect as I could hope for: timing perfect, no end shake, tight lockup, perfect deep blue finish, brilliant colors on hammer and trigger and smooth double action pull. As expected the SA pull was crisp and clean. However, as I also expected, the throats were way, way oversized - between .456" and .457", and not all the same. My intent simply put was to see how accurate I could make the gun. This is the first report, a baseline if you will, on how successful I am at attaining that goal.

Shooting at 50 yards using a 6 o'clock hold from a seated rest position (wrists on rest). Light was good but I had trouble keeping the shots on the target, let alone in the black. The group shooting a reload of known performance, was in excess of 12 inches.

Keith
 
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This load in a Ruger Bisley shoots into 6" at 50 yards without fliers. In a Bowen custom Model 58 rechambered to 45 Colt, this load goes into half that or about 3" at 50 yards. It is a very consistent repeatable load (Laser Cast 250 grain RNFP over 8.5 grains of Unique, measured 945 fps from a 4" Mountain Gun).

I have reached out to Brian Reese (765-541-8584) for some 260 grain Keith style bullets with a hardness of about 14 Brinnell, what Elmer used to recommend. My intent is to see if the softer bullet upsets enough to do a better job of filling the throats, but not so soft as to lead the barrel. My starting point for loading is the same 8.5 grains of Unique. I'll keep you all up to date on my progress.

Lastly, the sights are set all the way down. The front sight measures .210" and the gun has a .125" rear sight blade. Ideally, it should have a .250" front sight and .135" rear blade.

Keith
 
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Move your target up from 50 yards to 15 yards and reshoot. I'd be lucky to stay in the black at 50 yards with a target that size.
I'm not sure those results are meaningful.
And while you are at it, try using the bottom of the black as the aim point. I find that sitting a black dot on top ot the sight picture works better than trying to place black sights against a black target and get repeatable results.
 
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andyo5 said:
Move your target up from 50 yards to 15 yards and reshoot. I'd be lucky to stay in the black at 50 yards with a target that size.
I'm not sure those results are meaningful.
And while you are at it, try using the bottom of the black as the aim point. I find that sitting a black dot on top ot the sight picture works better than trying to place black sights against a black target and get repeatable results.
Click to expand...

Very curious what you mean. As stated in the first post, I used a 6 o'clock hold. That puts the bull on top of the front sight. And how is shooting at a shorter distance more meaningful when measuring accuracy? I'm probably missing your point so please help me understand. By the way, the target is a standard 50 yard bullseye target.

Keith
 
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Have you tried it with any jacketed bullets? I have a 25-2 with .455 throats and when I run 230 ball through it it shoots just fine. Cast bullets it opens way up. I tried .454" cast bullets and got terrible leading just front of the forcing cone. The gun is relegated to jacketed, and now Powder Coated bullets.
 
cprher said:
Very curious what you mean. As stated in the first post, I used a 6 o'clock hold. That puts the bull on top of the front sight. And how is shooting at a shorter distance more meaningful when measuring accuracy? I'm probably missing your point so please help me understand. By the way, the target is a standard 50 yard bullseye target.

Keith
Click to expand...

If you are trying to evaluate accuracy, comparative group size is the only way that makes any sense to me. To do that, you need to be able to clearly see both the sight picture and its position on the target. I can't do that at 50 yards. At 15 yards, I can do it and I can compare one group to another to evaluate different loads and different guns. Here's an example showing 2 groups shot from the same gun, same load. I turned the target upside down to shoot group #2.



BTW, I have found all my 45 Colts do better with softer bullets, 14 BNH as you said. I have a comparative target that shows groups of the same bullet in 14 BNH and 22 BNH.
 
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I'd have put those Ahrends (?) stocks, TH and TT on that good-shooting M58 and settled for that. But that's just me.

Larry
 
andyo5 said:
If you are trying to evaluate accuracy, comparative group size is the only way that makes any sense to me. To do that, you need to be able to clearly see both the sight picture and its position on the target. I can't do that at 50 yards.
Click to expand...

Sir you are 100% correct! The key to your statement is "clearly see"! In my younger years I would shoot my 29 Silhouette at 100 yards for group evaluation. Sitting, barrel rested(hell on sand bags), and open sights! If your going to be shooting at something at 100-200 yards, don't sight the gun in at 15 yards. In the groups from cprher's gun you can clearly see he has many fliers which can be caused by the gun and/or the shooter. IMHO, the only true solution to his problem is bigger dia. bullets!
jcelect
 
jcelect said:
Sir you are 100% correct! The key to your statement is "clearly see"! In my younger years I would shoot my 29 Silhouette at 100 yards for group evaluation. Sitting, barrel rested(hell on sand bags), and open sights! If your going to be shooting at something at 100-200 yards, don't sight the gun in at 15 yards. In the groups from cprher's gun you can clearly see he has many fliers which can be caused by the gun and/or the shooter. IMHO, the only true solution to his problem is bigger dia. bullets!
jcelect
Click to expand...


I have read of folks using 0.454" diameter bullets in cases like this.
 
andyo5 said:
I have read of folks using 0.454" diameter bullets in cases like this.
Click to expand...

That is where I'm going next. Called Bryan Reece, a well respected bullet guy who will be sending me some 250 Keith bullets sized to .454" and about 14 Brinnell hardness. I'm hoping this will reduce the number of flyers. All I'm looking for now is a nice consistent cluster on the target. Not looking for target grade type of accuracy, a 6" to 7" group would be fine by me as long as I get those pesky flyers to go away. As I said, more later when I give them a test.

Keith
 
Bear in mind that resting the barrel on sandbags will probably give you tighter groups, but will likely mislead you regarding point of aim vs point of impact. So if you adjust your rear sight while resting the barrel on a bag, your offhand point of impact will not be what you expected.
One option is to rest barrel on bag to evaluate best possible group size, but rest only hands on bags to adjust the sights.
That is, unless you have the dough to pop for a Ransom Rest!
 
Sometimes plated or jacketed bullets perform well despite the oversize throats. For standard pressure and velocity loads I found that the Remington 250gr LRN bullets at .455" diameter shoot quite well in my Colt's and S&W's with oversize throats and bought in the 1000 box are not all that expensive. My home cast Kieth type 270gr bullets at .454" diameter also work quite well.
 
Update

Well, I've shot about 200 rounds of my 45 Colt load (255 grain RNFP over 8.5 grains of Unique) through my "new" 25-5. Accuracy is still the same as in the pictures I shared earlier. From time to time "groups" will form but the gun sends flyers hither and yon with no apparent rhyme or reason. Took the gun to my smith and we spent a couple hours cleaning the gun, and lightly stoning the action. Gun looks good inside and out and is smoothing up nicely. While he did his thing, I took the time to carefully measure the throats with his very expensive digital calipers. Five throats measured between .459" and .4595" and one throat measured .460". Frankly, I'm not at all sure the new larger bullets will make any real difference but I'm going to give it the old college try. Wish me luck.

Keith
 
There seems to be some confusion of what "soft" is. A BHN of 14 is definitely not soft, unless of course you are comparing it to the BHN 18 bullets that most commercial casters offer. Keith developed the .44 Magnum using 16:1 alloy bullets with a BHN of 11. I cast my .45 Colt bullets with an alloy of 10-11 BHN, and I drive them 150-200fps faster than you do. Oh, and I second the recommendation of moving closer for accuracy testing to reduce sighting errors.

Don
 
USSR said:
There seems to be some confusion of what "soft" is. A BHN of 14 is definitely not soft, unless of course you are comparing it to the BHN 18 bullets that most commercial casters offer. Keith developed the .44 Magnum using 16:1 alloy bullets with a BHN of 11. I cast my .45 Colt bullets with an alloy of 10-11 BHN, and I drive them 150-200fps faster than you do. Oh, and I second the recommendation of moving closer for accuracy testing to reduce sighting errors.

Don
Click to expand...

Not sure whether you were talking to me or to someone else, Don; but I have gotten better results with softer (11 BNH) bullets than from harder versions (22 BNH) of the same bullet from the same maker. Is a hard bullet (18 BNH or so) needed to kill dangerous game such as hogs? I'm not sure what 'hard' cast bullets are needed for. Are you?
 
I was going to ask what's the size of your expander die (a larger one being better for oversized bullets, like those found in Cowboy Action die sets) but since they're that large you'd probably be better off just going with coated/plated/jacketed bullets. They shot better in my SRH 454 with large throats.

.
 
Keith - With throats that large, there is something that might work for you. For years Remington and Winchester loaded the .45c with a hollow base bullet. This allowed the bullet base to expand and contract as needed in the many Colt SA's with large throats, increasing accuracy. Same principal really as the .38 spl. HBWC. These bullets have worked well in an old Colt SA of mine, making a noticeable difference in accuracy compared to cast .454 SWC's. An internet search may find some of these bullets for sale, as they were offered to reloaders.

I'm sure a search would also find someone making or offering a set of molds with a Hollow Base pin for making your own, with the added benefit of being able to customize BNH to your liking. I believe the REM / WIN versions were all soft swaged.

Larry
 
Rainiers or Berry bullets are usually cheaper than jacketed but a few cents more than cast. I've used them in guns with oversize throats many times with excellent results. They are both copper plated not jacketed and are loaded using cast bullet data.
 
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