Big Throats Again? The Saga Continues.

[BE Mike]

If you are trying to evaluate accuracy, comparative group size is the only way that makes any sense to me. To do that, you need to be able to clearly see both the sight picture and its position on the target. I can't do that at 50 yards. At 15 yards, I can do it and I can compare one group to another to evaluate different loads and different guns. Here's an example showing 2 groups shot from the same gun, same load. I turned the target upside down to shoot group #2.



BTW, I have found all my 45 Colts do better with softer bullets, 14 BNH as you said. I have a comparative target that shows groups of the same bullet in 14 BNH and 22 BNH.

No offense intended, but to really evaluate one load against another, the target must be moved out to 50 yards. In my younger days, I could shoot six rounds at 15 yards from a two handed, standing, unsupported position, double-action and have all rounds touching. If one really needs to see what the accuracy capability of ammo is, 50 yards will show the difference. If one doesn't want or need that kind of accuracy, just load your ammo, shoot and have fun, any safe load and decent bullet will suffice.

 

[keithherrington]

Well, I found what I'm going to do, and

some of you just may be excited on what I found out.

Based on gmurdaugh's recommendation I reached out to Cylinder and Slide (C&S) to see if they had any 625 cylinders left. They do not. But we discussed what could be done and they sent me a very nice quote for modifying a 629 cylinder and installing it, then plating the gun in hard chrome to make it all look the same. Not my first choice, I do prefer blue, but if stainless was the only solution for the cylinder I was at least going to consider it. Bottom line: C&S didn't recommend hard chroming stainless, so that approach was out. But in the quote C&S stated that since S&W was making the Model 25 in 45 Colt (their Classic series), they more than likely had cylinders.

I called S&W Customer Service and was told, yes indeed they do have new 45 Colt cylinders, but they would not fit old guns because of some sort of technical issue. I whined mightily at the state of the world and the gentleman at Customer Service said "Wait, let me check to see if I'm not leading you astray." On the line came a gentleman named Joe. He stated flatly that they indeed had the cylinders and indeed they could be installed. We chatted a bit about the details, such as the finish not matching exactly, maybe having to set the barrel back to get the right B/C gap, etc., but in the end I told him I'd be shipping my gun to him ASAP. This I plan to do tomorrow.

As part of the work I plan to have the Performance Center do their Master Revolver Action package, chamfer the rear of the barrel shank, and a few other odds and ends. Joe said the turnaround for this type of work was 4-6 months but that is half the time Bowen or C&S would take and a whole lot less expensive.

All in all, a good day.

Keith

 

[M29since14]

Keep us informed, please. Your 50 yard testing is the right thing to do. Lots of guns and loads "fall apart" when they get past 20 or 25 yards. I won't try to/can't explain it but have seen it happen too many times.

I think putting a good cylinder in your gun is really your only option if you want to shoot anything other than the traditional .45 Colt swaged hollow-base bullet. Hope the work at S&W turns out well for you.

 

[keithherrington]

Update: Got my Sales Quotation from S&W

Just received my Sales Quotation from S&W with regards to the Performance Center installing a new 45 Colt cylinder on my 25-5. The cost breakdown is as follows:

a. Performance Center (PC) Estimate and Range Test - $45
b. Replacement 45 Colt Cylinder - $92
c. PC Master Action Job - $87
d. PC Labor - $45
e. Return Shipping - $13
f. Total - $282

This work includes chamfering the rear of the barrel to remove any sharp edge, and installing a new rear sight blade.

This cost was so low that sending it to Bowen for a custom solution was just not realistic.

The one thing they refused to do was mill off the front sight (.210") and install a pinned in front sight .255" tall. I'll have to have my gunsmith here do that. After range testing to verify the sights are in fact set up the right way, and to insure the gun is functioning as I want in terms of both accuracy and reliability, I'll send it back to S&W to be refinished.

The turn around for this initial work will be 4-6 weeks, but refinishing will take a bit longer I think.

Keith

 

[keithherrington]

News from S&W

Just notified that S&W is ready to ship my 25-5 back to me having completed all the repairs listed in the post above. After I get it back I'll do a back to back comparison between it and my 625-6 Mountain Gun, also in 45 Colt. Once satisfied it's performing as I want, I'll have my gunsmith install the replacement front sight and then do a final sight calibration. Once totally satisfied, back to S&W it goes to be reblued. It's been a long process, but hopefully the end result will be worth the wait.

Keith

 

[Art Doc]

It's a shame that you had to go through all this trouble and expense (not to mention mental anguish) just to make the gun the way it should have been when shipped. This business with the 25s and bad cylinders is inexcusable. I really hope you have the revolver you want after the expense.

Two years ago I saw a pinned 25-5 at a local show. Had I known I would see one I would have brought a bullet to check the chambers. I bagged it hoping I would get lucky and it would shoot.

It does...

There's the gun.

PS: I don't even bother shooting a handgun at 50 yards. No matter how accurate the pistol is I get patterns rather groups.

More PS: For 30 years I have routinely loaded .454 lead bullets for my 45 Colt guns (even for the pistols bored .452) and they always worked well. But recently I have had a hard time finding bullets sized .454.

 

[BUFF]

Keith:

Sounds like a great course of action.

How different is the finish on the cylinder? Could you take and post a photo of it?

 

[keithherrington]

Keith:

Sounds like a great course of action.

How different is the finish on the cylinder? Could you take and post a photo of it?

I will when I get the gun next week.
Keith

 

[Yorkie Man]

I have a 25-5 in nickel that had .459-.460 throats and it did shoot ok with the older R-P 250 HB bullets but they have since quit making that bullet the newer ones are flat base and key holed through the revolver. I bought a 625 cylinder from Gun Parts and fitted it to the revolver and cut an 11 degree forcing cone and it shoots much better with no flyers or keyholes. I agree that the front sight is too low but I have yet to address that problem. I polished the cylinder and it matches the nickle finish pretty good.

 

[keithherrington]

Well I got it back in my hands today...

And based on a visual inspection, a careful cleaning and making a few measurements, I couldn't be happier. Shoot it tomorrow, but that is for another report. I had two lead bullets, one measured .452" and one .453". Dropped them both into the chamber and the .452" barely hung on and the .453" was a gentle push fit. B/C gap was a consistent .007" with no end shake. Timing and come up were spot on. Single action feel and weight were about as good as I've seen and the double action pull was much improved, keeping in mind the factory strength Wolff Power Rib mainspring, and for a 15# rebound. The blue on the cylinder was not as deep as on the rest of the gun, but very close in both color and sheen. They even gently chamfered the rear end of the barrel. The cylinder was the newest version with long cylinder notches and black powder chamfer on the front edge. Here are the picks.






Keith

 

[Art Doc]

Seems to match perfectly (at looking at the photos). Hope you are happy with it now.

 

[keithherrington]

Seems to match perfectly (at looking at the photos). Hope you are happy with it now.

Proof is in the shooting. We'll see about that tomorrow.
Keith

 

[BUFF]

Yep, looking good!

 

[keithherrington]

Just got back from the range and it's been a good day!

For the most part very satisfied with how the gun shoots using my standard 45 Colt load: 250 grain Laser Cast RN FP over 8.5 grains of Unique, Starline brass and Federal Lg Pistol primer. I shot this gun side by side with my 625-6 Mountain Gun which seems to be my most accurate 45 Colt revolver. Just a touch more accurate than the 625-5 Classic I own. This same load out of the Mountain Gun went into a little under 4" at 50 yards.

The improvement in accuracy for the 25-5 now gives me confidence that doing some experimentation with bullets and loads will be successful. Oh, and in strong sunlight the color match of the new cylinder is extremely close to the original finish. Under normal circumstances rebluing the gun to get a matching finish will not be necessary.

Keith

 

[keithherrington]

I was going to post this in reloading but...

I thought you folks that have been following this project might be interested in what load I'm focusing on.

On a previous post I mentioned that using my standard load (250 grain RNFP by Laser Cast over 8.5 grains of Unique, the new and improved 25-5 shot a 2" group at 25 yards and a 4" group (2" wide) at 50 yards. But at home I have had a quantity of 247 grain Keith SWCs sized .451" that I could never get to shoot in any gun I owned. They just seemed too small for either the various Mountain Guns I've owned (to include the one I have now) or the 45 Colt Model 625-5 Classic. But Model 25 barrels I've had and seen in the past have had very tight bores (.4510"-.4515" were common) and wondered if this gun might be able to handle them. The throats seem to measure right at .452" and the bore seems a smidge tighter than either the Classic or the MG.

I loaded some up (again, with 8.5 grains of Unique) and tried some today in all three guns. As before the 625s both rejected the loads. Groups were fairly concentric 4"-5" at 25 yards. But the 25-5 shot a 2" wide by 4" tall group at that distance. What disturbed me was the variation I felt in recoil and the commensurate vertical stringing, something I'd never seen before in my pistol shooting. I recalled that with this bullet I seated and crimped in one operation and was not at the time satisfied with the quality of the crimp. As you can see in the pic below the crimp groove on this bullet is very small and you need to get the crimp just right. I don't think I did. Oh, and for those of you wondering, that is Beeswax bullet lube. Yup, the real deal.

I just finished up loading another test batch, this time seating at a very consistent 1.600" and then crimping as a separate operation. The results were far, far superior. All the crimps felt identical, and the lip of the case is exactly on the forward shoulder of the crimp groove. Next step is to shoot them and see if this addresses my vertical stringing.

BTW, for those of you thinking my charge weights might be the cause that is not it. I check charge weights before and after each 20 rounds and my Redding Bench Rest Powder Measure throws Unique within 1/2 a 10th grain.

Keith

 

[M29since14]

Keith, the vertical stringing is most likely the usual culprit - in other words, difficulty in resolving the perfect match of front and rear sight in elevation. I always have trouble with this in bench shooting a revolver and changed to prone years ago when I discovered that somehow prone worked better.

I would encourage you to try the biggest bullet you can stuff in that new cylinder. If a .453 bullet can be pushed through I would try a .454. If the loaded round will drop into the chambers I think it's no risk and might serve to get you a little more accuracy.

I'm glad things have worked out for you with this gun. Staying on the project paid off, didn't it?

 

[keithherrington]

Keith, the vertical stringing is most likely the usual culprit - in other words, difficulty in resolving the perfect match of front and rear sight in elevation. I always have trouble with this in bench shooting a revolver and changed to prone years ago when I discovered that somehow prone worked better.

I would encourage you to try the biggest bullet you can stuff in that new cylinder. If a .453 bullet can be pushed through I would try a .454. If the loaded round will drop into the chambers I think it's no risk and might serve to get you a little more accuracy.

I'm glad things have worked out for you with this gun. Staying on the project paid off, didn't it?

I would agree except I was running side by side comparisons with both my Mountain Gun and my Classic and with neither did I have anything except concentric groups. Not tight but at least concentric. No, the recoil variance I think had something to do with it and possibly the smooth grips not giving me sufficient purchase. Now, admittedly I'll get vertical stringing at 50 yards due I'm sure to what you describe; but at 25 yards I'm not normally that sloppy. Tomorrow I'll try my new loads which were VERY carefully assembled, and the new grips from John Culina, a pair of Ziricote checkered Classics, paying particular attention to how consistent the recoil feels. If I'm still plagued by it, it may be that the .451" bullets are not consistent in their sizing, and the smaller ones are letting some gas bleed past. I'm not sold on this explanation since in my experience lead bullets normally upset enough to create a very good seal with the bore. Oh, and I agree with using a larger diameter bullet, but what I'm trying to do is see if the bullets I do have (about 2000) can be salvaged. They don't shoot worth **** in any gun I've ever tried them in.

Keith

 

[scooter123]

I expect that you'll find seating and crimping in separate stages will resolve our vertical stringing. It it doesn't the next thing I would suggest is shimming the Strain Screw by about 0.010 inch. Because I found with my model 620 that a mainspring running just above the reliable ignition borderline will produce vertical stringing. BTW, my 620 is equipped with a reflex sight for accuracy testing loads so sight alignment doesn't factor in.

I also hope that you intend to keep those Ahrends grips, because that is about the prettiest set of Walnut grips I've ever seen. I also much prefer a matte finish over a gloss finish.

 

[keithherrington]

I also hope that you intend to keep those Ahrends grips, because that is about the prettiest set of Walnut grips I've ever seen. I also much prefer a matte finish over a gloss finish.

I have every intention of keeping them, in fact they may go on my 28-2, though the current Culina Classics are a thing of beauty. These are the first Ahrends I've really liked and they fit my hand very well. Also, I think they are Rosewood and not Walnut. Can't be sure since I'm a dullard when it comes to wood.
Keith

 

[ameridaddy]

...Took the gun to my smith and we spent a couple hours cleaning the gun, and lightly stoning the action. ....
Keith

Keith, I live not too far from you, near Richmond, have the same gun with 8-3/8 bbl with same problem, and am looking for a good pistolsmith in central VA that isn't booked for two years and will take new work.
If I might ask, who is your smith?
PM me and I may be able to help you with a taller front sight. I have some .323 Patridge for pinned installation.