Big Throats Again? The Saga Continues.

[keithherrington]

Keith, I live not too far from you, near Richmond, have the same gun with 8-3/8 bbl with same problem, and am looking for a good pistolsmith in central VA that isn't booked for two years and will take new work.
If I might ask, who is your smith?
PM me and I may be able to help you with a taller front sight. I have some .323 Patridge for pinned installation.

My gunsmith is my lawyer, who lives in central Maryland. We get together once or twice a month. As far as I know he doesn't take any outside work except that from close friends. Ex-cop and S&W trained armorer, he's very good.

As for the front sight, I have a gold-bead patridge front sight .250" tall, or .040" taller than the current one. It's an SDM pin-in front sight and very nicely made. Thanks very much for the offer however. I've got a local gunsmith that is going to install it in a week or two. I'll post the results on this discussion thread and you can reach out to me then if you want him to do yours as well. His name is Dale Woolum and he is in Charlottesville, VA.

Keith

 

[BUFF]

Ameridaddy:

cprher had his new cylinder installed by Smith & Wesson. That seemed to be the source of improvement. I'd give them a shout to see about yours.

 

[M29since14]

Not to be the naysayer but I'd say two targets and two unexplained flyers suggest the need for a bit more testing. I wouldn't load all 2000 just yet. Keep us posted.

 

[keithherrington]

Not to be the naysayer but I'd say two targets and two unexplained flyers suggest the need for a bit more testing. I wouldn't load all 2000 just yet. Keep us posted.

Yup. I agree. I'm going to load up 100 tomorrow and do a long term test. If at the end I just have an occasional flyer, then as a practice round it will suffice. I'm already on the hunt for a vendor that can provide a high quality honest to God 250-260 grain Keith with a flat base, a square cut grease groove, a broad meplate and consistency in both weight and diameter (.452").

Keith

 

[andyo5]

.451" bullets are too small for 45 Colt. I get my best results with .452" SWC bullets and RNFP bullets work almost as well.
I have not tried larger sized bullets.

 

[keithherrington]

Spoke with Brian Reese today...

Brian is a noted custom bullet manufacturer, mostly 45 cal and mostly for single actions. Brian listened to what I had loaded and its performance on paper. In his opinion, my load is too LIGHT. He says to up the load to 9-10 grains of Unique to help upset the bullet more, or more rapidly which might settle things down. I'll try 9 grains of Unique to start, then might try magnum primers to give the load a kick in the butt.

Keith

 

[6string]

Maybe I just missed it, but what was the bore diameter?
The basic problem is the discrepancy between the bore and throat diameters.
Veral Smith of LBT bullets developed a barrel lapping approach which can help in these situations. His intent was to eliminate the choked throat effect that can occur when the barrel is threaded onto the frame. The result is an increase in accuracy, but also a controllable increase in bore diameter by .001-.003".
So, it can effectively reduce or eliminate the discrepancy caused by oversized throats.
Of course, you pretty much have to use matching oversized bullets to reap the full benefit.

Jim

 

[ameridaddy]

cprher - Before this thread closes, I wanted to thank you for letting me know Smith could replace my 25-5 overbored (.4575"-.458" measured with Starrett small hole gages) cylinder, while my bore slugged .451". I called them several times over the past few years asking if they had any blued cylinders, and the answer was always no, and, paraphrasing, "We're not going to make any, because we make more money selling guns than making parts." I reminded them there were thousands of overbored 25-2 and 25-5 cylinders out there, but I was dismissed.
After seeing your tale, I talked to Smith and they now have my gun, with the same work ordered for it you specified for yours. I'm looking forward to a Smith 45 Colt that patterns better than my shotgun, and I really enjoyed reading your load testing chronicle with it. Many thanks again.

 

[keithherrington]

Maybe I just missed it, but what was the bore diameter?
The basic problem is the discrepancy between the bore and throat diameters.
Veral Smith of LBT bullets developed a barrel lapping approach which can help in these situations. His intent was to eliminate the choked throat effect that can occur when the barrel is threaded onto the frame. The result is an increase in accuracy, but also a controllable increase in bore diameter by .001-.003".
So, it can effectively reduce or eliminate the discrepancy caused by oversized throats.
Of course, you pretty much have to use matching oversized bullets to reap the full benefit.

Jim

Jim,
The bore is not choked at the frame but in fact is a very consistent .4515"-.4520" from front to back. All the throats measure right at .452". I've had S&Ws (Model 625-7s and PC made Model 627 8-times) that were choked as you describe and I've had Ruger single actions with that malady as well. But not on this gun. With proper size bullets and the correct load it consistently prints concentric 2" groups at 25 yards. By fiddling with the load, maybe better. The problem is the very slightly undersized bullets I'm trying to salvage.
Keith

 

[keithherrington]

New front sight finished up

As I stated earlier in this thread, the gun's original front sight is .210" tall. To be perfectly zero's using the .136" rear sight blade, the front sight should ideally be .250". With the .210"/.136" sight combination it shot 8 inches high at 50 yards. Well, I just got the new front sight installed. S&W didn't sell a serrated ramp .250" tall. The closest they had was a .243" so that's what I got and had Dale Woolum of Charlottesville, VA install it for me today. Dale is a nationally ranked bench rest shooter and a fine gunsmith. Here is what the new sight looks like.





Keith

 

[BUFF]

PLEEEEEEEASE tell us that you are going to blue the ends of that front sight pin! You are getting close to perfection.

Did the old sight blade need to be milled off or was it pinned, too?

 

[keithherrington]

PLEEEEEEEASE tell us that you are going to blue the ends of that front sight pin! You are getting close to perfection.

Did the old sight blade need to be milled off or was it pinned, too?

Buff,
Sorry to disappoint but no, I'm not going to blue the pin. It's stainless and won't take a cold blue. My approach to this project was to not incur any cost I didn't need to. So when I got the gun back from S&W and found the new cylinder to be such a good match and that they'd taken great care not to disturb the blue in any area they didn't need to, I decided that I wouldn't have the gun reblued. Anyway, the stainless pin looks OK to me. It draws the eye to the modified front sight which I think is cool. In my opinion, Dale's work is perfection. He had to mill off the existing front sight and not disturb any bluing in the process. That area has not been touched up with cold blue. The machining is so precise the front sight is actually inletted into the base .002" to close up a gap at the back of the blade. I'll shoot the gun in next couple of weeks (hand is still healing) and I'm REALLY eager to see how it now performs. And my new Keith bullets from Bryan Reece (sized .452") just arrived and will be loaded for testing as well.

Keith

 

[BUFF]

Keep posting the results. That gun looks great, it's turned out very well. Your photographs are excellent.

 

[keithherrington]

Pinned vs Non-Pinned: What really changed?

This discussion thread (and others like it) have addressed to one degree or another how the problem of big throats was addressed by S&W at some point in the last part of the production run: probably by N8XXXXX or N9XXXXX, but most certainly by the time the numbering system had changed to ABCXXXX. I didn't doubt this was true but I was suspicious that changing throat size was the only product improvement. To satisfy my curiosity I bought the following gun - BAN63XX, made approximately in 1988 (date on grips). BTW, I checked my records and in November 2006 I sold my three Model 25-5s (N8022xx, N9000xx and AJJ92xx). Unfortunately, I have no detailed records of the accuracy of these guns. Another lost opportunity.





I picked it up today and plan on shooting it tomorrow; but, let me just share what I've learned so far.

a. Throats are between .451" and .452" using a .451" diameter lead bullet as a guide. However, fired cases from the pinned gun slide neatly into the chambers of the non-pinned gun, telling me the chambers are cut very much to the same dimensions.
b. Front sight height is .235" above the base compared to .210" of the original pinned front sight. However, the barrel diameters are slightly different between the two guns (.740" pinned vs .770" non-pinned). From the picture you can see that the barrel is a bit chunkier than the pinned barrel. After running the numbers the two turn out to be remarkably similar. The height of the front blades to the center of bore on both guns is: .893" for the non-pinned gun and .900" for the pinned gun.
c. Both guns came with .126" rear sight blades.
d. The fit and finish of both guns are similarly superb. Both guns lock up solidly with no rotational slack; end-shake is virtually zero on both; DA and SA actions are superb; bluing on both is first rate, though the pinned gun's finish is just a hint deeper blue and a bit glossier.

A cursory examination I know but this tells me that S&W went a bit deeper than just correcting the obvious throat size mistake. I'm doing a side by side test with the same ammos with both guns tomorrow and will submit a report on the results.

Keith

 

[M29since14]

Lucky you! Nice looking .45, and with a "good" cylinder, too. Congrats on finding that one.

I have a similar 25-9 with proper cylinder dimensions for us cast bullet shooters, and it is a fine shooter as far as that goes, but it is desperately in need of a taller front sight. I was so happy to finally find a decent S&W .45 that would have every possibility to be a good shooter - only to be quickly confounded by the silly sight problem.

I think I am done with fighting to get something in .45-caliber that I can actually use, but I do give you credit for putting your money where your mouth is. Be interested in the comparison of your two guns.

 

[keithherrington]

Side by Side Range Comparison

Went to the range today to test both 25-5s side by side with the same ammo. I had a variety of ammo available: my standard RNFP 250 grain (.452") over 8.5 Unique with a Federal 150 primer; a Keith 250 grain (.451") over 8.5 Unique and 9.0 Unique, with the latter loaded with three types of primers: Fed 150, Rem 2.5 and CCI Large Pistol.

This gun is my newly acquired non-pinned 25-5 (BAN63XX). Gun is completely stock, apparently new and unfired based on the complete lack of finish wear on the recoil plate and front of cylinder.

 

[keithherrington]

Side by Side Range Comparison

The purpose of the test was to see how the two guns - one a highly modified older model and one a bone stock newer model - compared using the same ammo. I used 50 yards to make the differences in performance more obvious. What I found was that my efforts to correct the older model's performance (due mostly to oversized throats) brought it up to and slightly above the performance of the new model. Frankly, the project was well worth my efforts. It contributed to the community's knowledge base and produced a gun that I will treasure the rest of my life.

On another note, the side by side test allowed me to compare the Culina grips to the factory target grips. The Culinas absorbed recoil far more effectively than the factory grips and made the gun far more comfortable to shoot.

Keith

 

[patrick james]

Rainiers or Berry bullets are usually cheaper than jacketed but a few cents more than cast. I've used them in guns with oversize throats many times with excellent results. They are both copper plated not jacketed and are loaded using cast bullet data.

I use hollow base Berry plated bullet with good results. I started by ordering .455 cast bullets but the Berry hollow base works better

 

[M29since14]

Presume you mean an R2-1/2 primer... ? Anyway, good looking targets - and guns, too. I'd bet there is a load that would make both of them shoot better, possibly with a good hollow-base bullet, but I understand your purpose it to burn up the smaller diameter bullets you already have.

 

[keithherrington]

Presume you mean an R2-1/2 primer... ? Anyway, good looking targets - and guns, too. I'd bet there is a load that would make both of them shoot better, possibly with a good hollow-base bullet, but I understand your purpose it to burn up the smaller diameter bullets you already have.

You're right. Remington 2.5. Made the change. But since all the throats on both guns are the proper size, hollow base bullets would not help. My future experiments will focus on loads that work with the 250 grain Keith bullets I just bought. They're sized .452" and have a square base. If I can't get Unique to work I'll expand my search to other powders that work in large volume cases.
Keith