Big Throats Again? The Saga Continues.

Keith,
Back in the late seventies when the 25-5 hit the market, I bought one...

It would not group with a proven load for nuthing.

Throats were on the big side, but I went to cut an 11 degree taper in
the forcing cone and found the problem...One land of rifling was
completing gone, the entire length of the 4" barrel.

Re-barreled it and it shot like a house on fire....I no longer have that revolver,
a close personal friend has carried it for a couple of decades now.

But, just for the record....

Fishinfool said:
Keith - With throats that large,
there is something that might work for you. For years Remington and Winchester loaded
the .45c with a hollow base bullet. This allowed the bullet base to expand and contract as needed in the many Colt SA's with large throats, increasing accuracy.
Same principal really as the .38 spl. HBWC. These bullets have worked well in an old Colt SA of mine,
making a noticeable difference in accuracy compared to cast .454 SWC's.
An internet search may find some of these bullets for sale, as they were offered to reloaders.


I'm sure a search would also find someone making or offering a set of molds with a Hollow Base pin
for making your own, with the added benefit of being able to customize BNH to your liking.
I believe the REM / WIN versions were all soft swaged.
Click to expand...


This revolver has over size throats as well, but a good barrel.

Shot this just today at 45 feet....My eyes are too old now for the longer ranges.

Remington .455 hollow base lead conical nosed bullets at near factory velocities....

6 Shots




Dave


P.S. This lit'l conumdrum has been on the charts for a whiles..........

I keep just a few handy...Jest in case.




.
Click to expand...
 
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Tom_R said:
OK, another dumb question, how can a .455 bullet go down a ~.452/.453.diamater barrel? Is the bullet shaved when it goes into the forcing cone?

Again, just trying to learn more here.
Click to expand...

No shaving. What happens is the bullet slightly elongates. Lead is very malleable.

Don
 
My earlier statement about your expectations was in regard to the revolver. I have (and had) a lot of 45 Colt revolvers. Both the S&W 25-5 and Colt SAA have over sized throats. But there's a lot more than throat sizing that make a gun not shoot worth a hoot. Your on the right track on these posts, send your gun to someone like Bowen, get it re-barreled, new cylinder, timing & lock up fixed and it might put 6 bullets in 3" at 50 yards. Or buy a newer 625 for less than a $1K and have the same results. I cast my own bullets and I can get decent results with a Colt SAA but I gave up on two 25-5s. If I could have got the results at 25 yds you're getting at 50yds I would have kept them.

On bullets the best results is a either a 255 grain LFRN Saeco 955 or a Keith style 270 grain cast from 16:1 or 20:1 which has a hardness of around 10 (same as wheel weights). Start with 16 grains of 2400. Max around 16.5. Works for my SAA.
 
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Got my samples of Bryan Reece's 270 grain Keith GC bullets. Shooting them tomorrow with 8.5 and 9.0 grains of Unique to see how they perform. They are sized .454" and are much longer than the RNFP 250s I've been shooting. According to Reece, the length of the bullet has a lot to do with its accuracy. We'll see.
Keith
 
I reckon I was lucky. I bought a new 4" blue M25-5 in 1980 and .452" jacketed bullets "stick" as I drop them into the chambers. It shoots fine.

I round butted this revolver and carried it as a duty gun for a couple of years. Sold it to my lieutenant at the PD and then bought it back from him in 2008. He passed in 2009. It ain't going anywhere now!
 
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I have an old Lyman #454424 four-cavity mould. As-cast diameter of the 260 grain flatnose (wheelweight alloy, 11-13 BHN) bullet are
around .456"-.457". I run these through a .461" .45-70 bullet die in a SAECO sizer/ lubricator so that the bullets are lubricated only, not sized.

One can experiment with different diameters and alloy hardness and hope for obturation with undersized bullets, but I've found initial good bullet fit (usually on the tight side) works sooner and better. With soft, medium, or hard .452" or .454" bullets, I never really got passable accuracy with the oversized S&W cylinder throats.

I used a popular Unique load for years in my 25-5s; good accurate load, but I've recently gone to a max. load of HS-6 for about the same velocity as the Unique load but with even better accuracy. I don't use hot loads in a 25-5 and certainly wouldn't recommend using oversize bullets for such loads in any .45 Colt with cylinder throats of proper diameter.
 
Test results

I'm considering having the cylinder redone by Bowen once I get a new non-recessed Model 29 cylinder from Brownells. Currently, they're on backorder. That will resolve all of these issues and allow me to use the ammo I have already, rather than launch into an endless series of experiments with various bullets and loads.

Keith
 
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I have a 25-5 with .458 throats.
In looking on line for a 44 cylinder to bore out I stumbled across a 625 cylinder at Cylinder and Slide. The tech there said the throats are .452 so I sent in the revolver for them to fit to the cylinder.
$100 for the cylinder and another $100 to fit. I thought that sounded like a cheap fix and I will still have the original cylinder if I ever want to sell it.
The tech said they have a few more 625 cylinders on hand.
Greg
 
gmurdaugh said:
I have a 25-5 with .458 throats.
In looking on line for a 44 cylinder to bore out I stumbled across a 625 cylinder at Cylinder and Slide. The tech there said the throats are .452 so I sent in the revolver for them to fit to the cylinder.
$100 for the cylinder and another $100 to fit. I thought that sounded like a cheap fix and I will still have the original cylinder if I ever want to sell it.
The tech said they have a few more 625 cylinders on hand.
Greg
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip. I have a 625-5 where those cylinders I think came from and it is a tack driver. But since I have a 629 cylinder already I'm not going to take that approach. I don't like the Pinto look and I've decided not to hard chrome or Metaloy the gun. It's too beautiful in its current blue finish. I will call them tomorrow however.
Keith
 
andyo5 said:
If you are trying to evaluate accuracy, comparative group size is the only way that makes any sense to me. To do that, you need to be able to clearly see both the sight picture and its position on the target. I can't do that at 50 yards. At 15 yards, I can do it and I can compare one group to another to evaluate different loads and different guns. Here's an example showing 2 groups shot from the same gun, same load. I turned the target upside down to shoot group #2.



BTW, I have found all my 45 Colts do better with softer bullets, 14 BNH as you said. I have a comparative target that shows groups of the same bullet in 14 BNH and 22 BNH.
Click to expand...
No offense intended, but to really evaluate one load against another, the target must be moved out to 50 yards. In my younger days, I could shoot six rounds at 15 yards from a two handed, standing, unsupported position, double-action and have all rounds touching. If one really needs to see what the accuracy capability of ammo is, 50 yards will show the difference. If one doesn't want or need that kind of accuracy, just load your ammo, shoot and have fun, any safe load and decent bullet will suffice.
 
Well, I found what I'm going to do, and

some of you just may be excited on what I found out.

Based on gmurdaugh's recommendation I reached out to Cylinder and Slide (C&S) to see if they had any 625 cylinders left. They do not. But we discussed what could be done and they sent me a very nice quote for modifying a 629 cylinder and installing it, then plating the gun in hard chrome to make it all look the same. Not my first choice, I do prefer blue, but if stainless was the only solution for the cylinder I was at least going to consider it. Bottom line: C&S didn't recommend hard chroming stainless, so that approach was out. But in the quote C&S stated that since S&W was making the Model 25 in 45 Colt (their Classic series), they more than likely had cylinders.

I called S&W Customer Service and was told, yes indeed they do have new 45 Colt cylinders, but they would not fit old guns because of some sort of technical issue. I whined mightily at the state of the world and the gentleman at Customer Service said "Wait, let me check to see if I'm not leading you astray." On the line came a gentleman named Joe. He stated flatly that they indeed had the cylinders and indeed they could be installed. We chatted a bit about the details, such as the finish not matching exactly, maybe having to set the barrel back to get the right B/C gap, etc., but in the end I told him I'd be shipping my gun to him ASAP. This I plan to do tomorrow.

As part of the work I plan to have the Performance Center do their Master Revolver Action package, chamfer the rear of the barrel shank, and a few other odds and ends. Joe said the turnaround for this type of work was 4-6 months but that is half the time Bowen or C&S would take and a whole lot less expensive.

All in all, a good day.

Keith
 
Keep us informed, please. Your 50 yard testing is the right thing to do. Lots of guns and loads "fall apart" when they get past 20 or 25 yards. I won't try to/can't explain it but have seen it happen too many times.

I think putting a good cylinder in your gun is really your only option if you want to shoot anything other than the traditional .45 Colt swaged hollow-base bullet. Hope the work at S&W turns out well for you.
 
Update: Got my Sales Quotation from S&W

Just received my Sales Quotation from S&W with regards to the Performance Center installing a new 45 Colt cylinder on my 25-5. The cost breakdown is as follows:

a. Performance Center (PC) Estimate and Range Test - $45
b. Replacement 45 Colt Cylinder - $92
c. PC Master Action Job - $87
d. PC Labor - $45
e. Return Shipping - $13
f. Total - $282

This work includes chamfering the rear of the barrel to remove any sharp edge, and installing a new rear sight blade.

This cost was so low that sending it to Bowen for a custom solution was just not realistic.

The one thing they refused to do was mill off the front sight (.210") and install a pinned in front sight .255" tall. I'll have to have my gunsmith here do that. After range testing to verify the sights are in fact set up the right way, and to insure the gun is functioning as I want in terms of both accuracy and reliability, I'll send it back to S&W to be refinished.

The turn around for this initial work will be 4-6 weeks, but refinishing will take a bit longer I think.

Keith
 
News from S&W

Just notified that S&W is ready to ship my 25-5 back to me having completed all the repairs listed in the post above. After I get it back I'll do a back to back comparison between it and my 625-6 Mountain Gun, also in 45 Colt. Once satisfied it's performing as I want, I'll have my gunsmith install the replacement front sight and then do a final sight calibration. Once totally satisfied, back to S&W it goes to be reblued. It's been a long process, but hopefully the end result will be worth the wait.

Keith
 
It's a shame that you had to go through all this trouble and expense (not to mention mental anguish) just to make the gun the way it should have been when shipped. This business with the 25s and bad cylinders is inexcusable. I really hope you have the revolver you want after the expense.

Two years ago I saw a pinned 25-5 at a local show. Had I known I would see one I would have brought a bullet to check the chambers. I bagged it hoping I would get lucky and it would shoot.

It does...

standard.jpg


There's the gun.

standard.jpg


PS: I don't even bother shooting a handgun at 50 yards. No matter how accurate the pistol is I get patterns rather groups.

More PS: For 30 years I have routinely loaded .454 lead bullets for my 45 Colt guns (even for the pistols bored .452) and they always worked well. But recently I have had a hard time finding bullets sized .454.
 
Keith:

Sounds like a great course of action.

How different is the finish on the cylinder? Could you take and post a photo of it?
 
I have a 25-5 in nickel that had .459-.460 throats and it did shoot ok with the older R-P 250 HB bullets but they have since quit making that bullet the newer ones are flat base and key holed through the revolver. I bought a 625 cylinder from Gun Parts and fitted it to the revolver and cut an 11 degree forcing cone and it shoots much better with no flyers or keyholes. I agree that the front sight is too low but I have yet to address that problem. I polished the cylinder and it matches the nickle finish pretty good.
 
Well I got it back in my hands today...

And based on a visual inspection, a careful cleaning and making a few measurements, I couldn't be happier. Shoot it tomorrow, but that is for another report. I had two lead bullets, one measured .452" and one .453". Dropped them both into the chamber and the .452" barely hung on and the .453" was a gentle push fit. B/C gap was a consistent .007" with no end shake. Timing and come up were spot on. Single action feel and weight were about as good as I've seen and the double action pull was much improved, keeping in mind the factory strength Wolff Power Rib mainspring, and for a 15# rebound. The blue on the cylinder was not as deep as on the rest of the gun, but very close in both color and sheen. They even gently chamfered the rear end of the barrel. The cylinder was the newest version with long cylinder notches and black powder chamfer on the front edge. Here are the picks.






Keith
 
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Just got back from the range and it's been a good day!

For the most part very satisfied with how the gun shoots using my standard 45 Colt load: 250 grain Laser Cast RN FP over 8.5 grains of Unique, Starline brass and Federal Lg Pistol primer. I shot this gun side by side with my 625-6 Mountain Gun which seems to be my most accurate 45 Colt revolver. Just a touch more accurate than the 625-5 Classic I own. This same load out of the Mountain Gun went into a little under 4" at 50 yards.

The improvement in accuracy for the 25-5 now gives me confidence that doing some experimentation with bullets and loads will be successful. Oh, and in strong sunlight the color match of the new cylinder is extremely close to the original finish. Under normal circumstances rebluing the gun to get a matching finish will not be necessary.

Keith
 
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I was going to post this in reloading but...

I thought you folks that have been following this project might be interested in what load I'm focusing on.

On a previous post I mentioned that using my standard load (250 grain RNFP by Laser Cast over 8.5 grains of Unique, the new and improved 25-5 shot a 2" group at 25 yards and a 4" group (2" wide) at 50 yards. But at home I have had a quantity of 247 grain Keith SWCs sized .451" that I could never get to shoot in any gun I owned. They just seemed too small for either the various Mountain Guns I've owned (to include the one I have now) or the 45 Colt Model 625-5 Classic. But Model 25 barrels I've had and seen in the past have had very tight bores (.4510"-.4515" were common) and wondered if this gun might be able to handle them. The throats seem to measure right at .452" and the bore seems a smidge tighter than either the Classic or the MG.

I loaded some up (again, with 8.5 grains of Unique) and tried some today in all three guns. As before the 625s both rejected the loads. Groups were fairly concentric 4"-5" at 25 yards. But the 25-5 shot a 2" wide by 4" tall group at that distance. What disturbed me was the variation I felt in recoil and the commensurate vertical stringing, something I'd never seen before in my pistol shooting. I recalled that with this bullet I seated and crimped in one operation and was not at the time satisfied with the quality of the crimp. As you can see in the pic below the crimp groove on this bullet is very small and you need to get the crimp just right. I don't think I did. Oh, and for those of you wondering, that is Beeswax bullet lube. Yup, the real deal.

I just finished up loading another test batch, this time seating at a very consistent 1.600" and then crimping as a separate operation. The results were far, far superior. All the crimps felt identical, and the lip of the case is exactly on the forward shoulder of the crimp groove. Next step is to shoot them and see if this addresses my vertical stringing.

BTW, for those of you thinking my charge weights might be the cause that is not it. I check charge weights before and after each 20 rounds and my Redding Bench Rest Powder Measure throws Unique within 1/2 a 10th grain.

Keith
 
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Keith, the vertical stringing is most likely the usual culprit - in other words, difficulty in resolving the perfect match of front and rear sight in elevation. I always have trouble with this in bench shooting a revolver and changed to prone years ago when I discovered that somehow prone worked better.

I would encourage you to try the biggest bullet you can stuff in that new cylinder. If a .453 bullet can be pushed through I would try a .454. If the loaded round will drop into the chambers I think it's no risk and might serve to get you a little more accuracy.

I'm glad things have worked out for you with this gun. Staying on the project paid off, didn't it? :)
 
M29since14 said:
Keith, the vertical stringing is most likely the usual culprit - in other words, difficulty in resolving the perfect match of front and rear sight in elevation. I always have trouble with this in bench shooting a revolver and changed to prone years ago when I discovered that somehow prone worked better.

I would encourage you to try the biggest bullet you can stuff in that new cylinder. If a .453 bullet can be pushed through I would try a .454. If the loaded round will drop into the chambers I think it's no risk and might serve to get you a little more accuracy.

I'm glad things have worked out for you with this gun. Staying on the project paid off, didn't it? :)
Click to expand...

I would agree except I was running side by side comparisons with both my Mountain Gun and my Classic and with neither did I have anything except concentric groups. Not tight but at least concentric. No, the recoil variance I think had something to do with it and possibly the smooth grips not giving me sufficient purchase. Now, admittedly I'll get vertical stringing at 50 yards due I'm sure to what you describe; but at 25 yards I'm not normally that sloppy. Tomorrow I'll try my new loads which were VERY carefully assembled, and the new grips from John Culina, a pair of Ziricote checkered Classics, paying particular attention to how consistent the recoil feels. If I'm still plagued by it, it may be that the .451" bullets are not consistent in their sizing, and the smaller ones are letting some gas bleed past. I'm not sold on this explanation since in my experience lead bullets normally upset enough to create a very good seal with the bore. Oh, and I agree with using a larger diameter bullet, but what I'm trying to do is see if the bullets I do have (about 2000) can be salvaged. They don't shoot worth **** in any gun I've ever tried them in.

Keith
 
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I expect that you'll find seating and crimping in separate stages will resolve our vertical stringing. It it doesn't the next thing I would suggest is shimming the Strain Screw by about 0.010 inch. Because I found with my model 620 that a mainspring running just above the reliable ignition borderline will produce vertical stringing. BTW, my 620 is equipped with a reflex sight for accuracy testing loads so sight alignment doesn't factor in.

I also hope that you intend to keep those Ahrends grips, because that is about the prettiest set of Walnut grips I've ever seen. I also much prefer a matte finish over a gloss finish.
 
scooter123 said:
I also hope that you intend to keep those Ahrends grips, because that is about the prettiest set of Walnut grips I've ever seen. I also much prefer a matte finish over a gloss finish.
Click to expand...

I have every intention of keeping them, in fact they may go on my 28-2, though the current Culina Classics are a thing of beauty. These are the first Ahrends I've really liked and they fit my hand very well. Also, I think they are Rosewood and not Walnut. Can't be sure since I'm a dullard when it comes to wood.
Keith
 
cprher said:
...Took the gun to my smith and we spent a couple hours cleaning the gun, and lightly stoning the action. ....
Keith
Click to expand...

Keith, I live not too far from you, near Richmond, have the same gun with 8-3/8 bbl with same problem, and am looking for a good pistolsmith in central VA that isn't booked for two years and will take new work.
If I might ask, who is your smith?
PM me and I may be able to help you with a taller front sight. I have some .323 Patridge for pinned installation.
 
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